|
Welcome to i.UCC Forums! To participate, please register or log in as a user. Your registration information will be confidential.
Para participar, favor de registrarse o entrar (Login) como usuario. La información sobre su registración es confidencial.  Register | Regístrese
Log in | Entrar
Forum Standards and Practices
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply.
|
|
| Author |
Messages |
|
ProudDog
Posts:688
 |
| 06/29/2009 8:54 AM |
|
| Welcome! Lots of folks are at the UCC's General Synod 27 for the first part of the week. Will any of y'all have an opportunity to join in our discussion of Mark 6:1-13? Take a look a these to discussion 'pump-primers:' "Sent with Power" and "Just Suppose . . ." Please join this week's conversation! |
|
-Kirk Moore |
|
|
gfriend255
Posts:35
|
| 06/29/2009 12:19 PM |
|
| Well, Kate's Weekly Seeds hit the mark really well. I was complaining to a long time minister friend about how some people could careless about my thoughts and ideas for the church, etc. (I might even have a "killer clergy" or two). He suggested that I should prepare a new resume and get ready to send it out, "shake off the dust" move on. The only thing is I have only been here less than 3 years and barely know the congregation and as we all know patients is a virtue. How many of us ordained ministers are impatient and ready to pack up our bags way to soon just because a few flolks are on our case. Does Jesus want disciples that quickly dust off his or her feet and leave to soon? I have the majority of the congregation wanting to progress they are still a little damp but are drying out and my matches, not a single match, but matches are ready to light and set fire as soon as the tinder is dry. |
|
|
|
|
Jack
Posts:123
|
| 06/29/2009 7:15 PM |
|
From the Christian Century's Living by the Word
Power source
"... I attended a recent gathering of large-church pastors in our area and enjoyed meeting colleagues whose church situations are similar to my own. It was helpful to hear how they struggle with the same problems—how to create community amid crowds, how to provide sufficient leadership training, recruit volunteers and run programs effectively. However, I confess that at times, instead of sounding like ministers, we sounded like managers of religious shopping malls who generate goods and services for the betterment of the customers who walk through our doors. This isn't necessarily bad, but it isn't necessarily Christian either.
"By contrast, when I attended a gathering of pastors from much smaller churches, nickel-and-dime operations with meager attendance on Sundays, barely able to support their pastors, I did not hear the pastors talk about improving their facilities or putting together a smoother operation for Jesus. All these pastors could talk about was how they were going to bring revival to Boston and turn the city upside down. They were going to halt violence, redress economic injustice, and preach peace and forgiveness to every neighborhood. I can also be cynical about planned revival, but this sounded like Christ-directed ministry to me. When God does show up in the ways these small churches expect, we'll know it is definitely God, for they cannot accomplish these things by their own power." -- Daniel Harrell
While large gatherings like General Synod have importance, most of the work in the church is done, through the Holy Spirit by small groups of dedicated believers. Yes I am a Trinitarian. |
|
Jack
Surrendered to GOD…
Transformed by CHRIST…
Empowered by the SPIRIT…
Uniting in LOVE & SERVICE!!! |
|
|
fleckers
Posts:177
|
| 06/29/2009 8:47 PM |
|
| I am a small town/rural area church minister and this is my call, definitely. A few years ago while attending a workshop for rural pastors a presenter said that he thought the 21st century church would begin in small churches/rural areas. I preached that to my church, telling them to expect revival to begin here, and they're fired up - and good things are happening as well. I always need to remember that Jesus wasn't here to make one church, one style, one building type, etc - he was here to accept everyone who sought him. |
|
|
|
|
Barnowl
Posts:27
|
| 06/30/2009 6:19 PM |
|
Coming from an overeducated, but sympathetic, layperson’s perspective, and having sat on quite a few boards and committees, I can understand the frustration of a pastor (experienced or not) trying to deal with the “change = no good” attitude. Also, in “shepherding” a half-dozen student interns in our congregation over the years, I can say that seminary doesn’t always prepare a new or young pastor for all of the realities of congregational life.
We come to question why people attend church at all? I hope I’m not overly generalizing or being too sarcastic when I say that the answer often comes back – to feel comfortable! Feelings also have a tendency to become internalized and often very little outreach is done beyond the walls of the congregation.
I’ve heard it said that Jesus came to comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable. The two objects might be one in the same person, depending on the time of day. The question I would be asking is “how can we afflict the comfortable, while not disrupting the all-important relationship that holds a community of faith together?” I don’t think people are willing to come out of their comfort zones unassisted, but neither do I think that lifelong members will easily just up and leave a congregation where they have spent much of their lives.
There is also the question of “catering” to congregational needs. Distinguishing between where a congregation wants to be and where a congregation needs to be should be a community decision! This is why we have boards of elders and trustees. But real input from those in the pews must be sought, gathered, evaluated, and presented without bias.
Two things that must be prayerfully kept in mind – The relationship is critical, and Christ must be at its center!
Faith, Love, Hope
Barnowl
|
|
|
|
|
gfriend255
Posts:35
|
| 06/30/2009 9:30 PM |
|
Wise words Barnowl,
“We come to question why people attend church at all?” Feeling is one answer, to socialize is another, to be criticized if one does not come, fear of hell, to have power, or follow the Christ, you name it. “Very little outreach is done beyond the walls of the congregation” mission or evangelism. This is the main problem in congregations that believe faith is private and I have heard that from many here but, the main reason is they themselves do not like to be witnessed to and feel embarced or they do not “have the time” yet, they cry, “where are the young folks.”
“How can we afflict the comfortable, while not disrupting the all-important relationship that holds a community of faith together? I don’t think people are willing to come out of their comfort zones unassisted, but neither do I think that lifelong members will easily just up and leave a congregation where they have spent much of their lives.” They will not leave but hibernate until the minister is gone, stop giving until he or she is gone, or become clergy killers. In a sense those in Nazareth have become those who wish Jesus gone. The faith community stays together. They cannot stand someone who challenges them, family or friends. Last week Jesus puts those who laugh at him outside this time Jesus leaves them inside their faithlessness and he tells his disciples to do the same, “dust off your feet as a testimony against them.” Who says Jesus is just another flower child without toughness. Now you know my age.
“Distinguishing between where a congregation wants to be and where a congregation needs to be should be a community decision! This is why we have boards of elders and trustees. But real input from those in the pews must be sought, gathered, evaluated, and presented without bias.” Why is a Rev. called to a community, in my case to put more people in the pews. That’s the norm for a small church who is declining. The minister comes in with fresh eyes. Sees what the congregation needs, helps them see what is lacking and then they say no way we are not going there. Time to dust your feet off? Christ is at the center of the minister, we hope any way. What is lacking in the congregation is they are not centered on the Christ. Yes, relationship is critical and Christ centered. I am lucky that the majority of the congregation is wanting to move forward in a new direction. Now to get the council and teams on board. Prayer is needed always and that is lacking because the team leaders are uncomfortable praying as they say, "that's what we pay you for." God help us all.
Faith, Love, Hope
Gary
|
|
|
|
|
kate huey
Posts:202
|
| 07/02/2009 9:51 AM |
|
Since the theme describes us as being sent (with power), I'm thinking about the direction of our ministry, which often seems to pull inward - to bring people in, for whatever reason - to minister to them, or perhaps to grow the church larger or even, alas, to solve its problems of shortage (we need more money, more workers, etc.).
What about the direction in this story, where the disciples are sent out there, to do their work out there? How do you feel about taking your faith out there? Do we contain our ministry and the practice of our faith to within, that is, within our churches and homes and selves? Or does it have something to do with how we vote, how we treat strangers, how we care for the environment, how we speak up when our commitment to the gospel clashes with the way things are being done or the way things are happening in the world?
Why are so many Christians able to use the language of hate, of shortage, of selfishness? Are we Christians only in church? |
|
|
|
|
gfriend255
Posts:35
|
| 07/02/2009 11:31 AM |
|
I believe we are to go to the ends of the earth or just our local comminities and bring people to the light of the Christ. Afterwards all of Kates quesitions will be answered in the positive. We pray they will anyway. Yet, it is the minister who must set an example for the congregation of going out into the world pronouncing the commandments of loving God and neigbor.
Sunday morning we enter into the sanctuary following the light of Christ after being out in the world and after the worship service we follow Jesus' light back out into the world renewed by the Spirit of God to make new disciples. The disciples were empowered by the Incarnate God to "comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable" making disciples. However, it seems that the disciples, after giving it their best and rejected, are to move on searching out those who want to become followers of the Savior. I believe it is the same with ministers after they give their all and not recieved well. It is difficult to soften hardened hearts that have lived with "hate, shortage, and selfishness." Yet, with prayer, determination, patients, and a whole lot of help from God it is possible to soften some of those hearts.
|
|
|
|
|
gfriend255
Posts:35
|
| 07/02/2009 4:09 PM |
|
| One last point and the jest of my sermon. In this story Jesus gives us away out from an abusive situation. It does not mean we are to give up immediately. As you heard shaking the dust off is serious business (The New Interpreters Bible points out, "The tradition [of shaking the dust off] merely stands as a testimony before God that the town has refused to hear God's word. Mark's judgement saysings correlate witness to or rejection of the Son of Man with a person's status in the judgment (Mark 8:38). So Jesus wants us to do our best just like he did in Nazareth but when people reject you continuously Jesus says, “Do as I do, walk away and go to the next town, the next city, the next job, and the next relationship.” Jesus tells you this because there are other people that do want to hear you, who do recognize the good in you, that do believe in you, respect you, and who want to be in a loving relationship with you. Jesus says, “go with my blessing and the power of God's Spirit.” |
|
|
|
|
LynnLabs
Posts:7
|
| 07/02/2009 9:35 PM |
|
| I certainly appreciate all the comments on ministry and the difficulty of doing it effectively. One thing in this text struck me as I read it: the fact that Jesus sent out his followers together. They were not sent individually with theology texts and church start manuals, but in pairs with nothing but each other. When the going got rough -- as we all know that it did -- Jesus' followers had at least one other person who could share wisdom and offer support. It seems to me that many struggling pastors these days don't have that. We are so busy working (calling on shut-ins, writing sermons, meeting with committees, etc.) that we don't take time to support one another! I am blessed to have several close clergy friends with whom I can both weep and celebrate, and who help me regain my perspective when I run up against folks who try my patience. As usual, Jesus' wisdom surpasses our own! |
|
|
|
|
kate huey
Posts:202
|
| 07/03/2009 7:13 PM |
|
Lynn, I read somewhere that sending them out in twos provided credibility for the message. That is, it showed it wasn't one man's idea, but coming out of community. What do you think?
I also find it intriguing that so many of us identify this passage with pastoral ministry. How would a person in the pew hear the passage - as being about pastors, or about all of Jesus' followers? |
|
|
|
|
Barnowl
Posts:27
|
| 07/03/2009 7:46 PM |
|
Kate: Your last point is very well taken. I’ve always thought that the evangelical message was for us in the pews to become disciples. I’ve also been taught that the church year after Pentecost (“Ordinary Time”) is for us to get out and do the work of Jesus Christ. This does not, of course, literally mean going door-to-door in pairs, but rather doing the work that shows the true teaching of Jesus.
FAITH, Love, Hope
Barnowl
|
|
|
|
|
LynnLabs
Posts:7
|
| 07/06/2009 3:31 PM |
|
| Is there really so much difference between being a pastor and "merely" being one of Jesus' disciples? There certainly is a difference today, with the chasm between "professional" (clergy) and "nonprofessional" (laity) church people; but in the early church, there was no such distinction. When Jesus sent out his followers, they were ALL "disciples" as well as "pastors." They pastored each other because they had to! I'm convinced that being a pastor is simply the flip side of being a disciple. We follow Jesus as disciples and then we turn around and become pastors to others. In my understanding, it's not so much of an either/or as a both/and! |
|
|
|
|
gfriend255
Posts:35
|
| 07/06/2009 11:00 PM |
|
Lynn,
Being a second career clergy I have often wondered if I am just a glorified lay preacher. However, I have discussed this with several ministers and in groups. What I find is that ordained clergy are apostles not disciples because we have been called like the 12 to go to the point of being in a position of being ridiculed and sometimes crucified in many different ways. How many times my interpretation of the biblical text has been questioned by people who know very little about the Bible stories. Here is a pat statement from people, “Well, that’s your interpretation.” Yes it is with much study, debate, discussion, questioning, etc. We are called by God but also by denominations and the church to go into the lions den and attempt to continue peoples education of God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. To bring spiritual guiding, to bring hope in a funeral service, to pastor those in time of illness and little if any hope of getting though a disease that will cause death. There is a big difference yet, that is not to say a lay person with training could not do all the same things yet, there is that difference, and a big difference, in being called to the ordained ministry and leading a congregation. |
|
|
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.7
|
|
|
|