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ProudDog
Posts:509
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| 04/14/2008 2:00 PM |
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| This week we're going to talk about a familiar, comforting, and, for some, troubling passage from Bible. (John 14:1-14) Kate's written a great piece describing Jesus' farewell speech to the disciples and how the context is so important to our understanding of the whole passage. I've just posed some questions I wrestle with relating to these verses (yes, particularly verse 6) Take a look at A Place with God and Exclusivity? and let's have a great conversation! |
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-Kirk Moore |
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revmom13
Posts:3
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| 04/15/2008 1:02 AM |
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I wonder about language sometimes. Translation is such a difficult art. "Believe in, on, through, under God. Believe in, on, under, through me"; and it can be "You believe"; and it can be "trust".
Further, you raised the point, Prouddog, that perhaps "John" was thinking these thoughts after Jesus, and wrote what he, John, wished Jesus had said to John's struggling church. Isn't it what we do Sunday by Sunday as we interpret the Word as best we can?
I guess what I'm getting at is let's back off a bit on being so uptight about what the Bible says. It says what the church is trying to say, God loves ya! Always has, always will. |
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kate huey
Posts:50
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| 04/15/2008 10:08 AM |
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This passage is part of Jesus' farewell words to his followers, but we mostly hear little "sound bites" from it, instead of getting a sense of the whole speech. Instead of the brief last words we all know from Jesus' time on the cross (a much more public and much more dramatic scene), this long, almost rambling speech is a quiet, intimate experience.
Jesus knew he was going to die, John tells us, and we know what was in his heart because of the way the scene is set at the beginning of the evening: "Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart from this world...Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end" (13:1)
So this was a quiet and heart-achingly sad moment for Jesus, as it is for anyone who is saying good-bye to the ones we love. We don't know what the disciples were feeling; they were still trying to catch up with what Jesus was saying, so they just sound bewildered.
And Jesus tried to tell them how much he loves them, like that shepherd last week in Psalm 23, who prepares the way and the place for the sheep in his care. You can hear between the lines that Jesus wanted to reassure them that he would never leave them abandoned and alone.
That's how I read this text today, not as a sword that cuts between us - the saved and the unsaved - but as tender words of farewell and reassurance. "Do not let your hearts be troubled...If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?"
John wrote this speech years after the death of Jesus (just as Moses' farewell speech - the entire book of Deuteronomy - was written centuries after the people of Israel had entered the Promised Land) to express what was in the heart of Jesus, which, at least in part, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, his disciples came to understand. So the message, and the reassurance, is for us today, too. "Do not let your hearts be troubled...." |
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subear
Posts:770
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| 04/15/2008 11:23 AM |
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Yes, to all three, especially, "God loves ya! Always has, always will."
The way I see it is, when Jesus "the man", spoke from his Christ Consciousness, he is speaking from his "God-Self," as God, as "the Father," "Aba," "the Beloved." Yes, it's true; to get to God, we too, must rise up through our own inner Christ to realize (to be with) our own God-Selves.
That passage in the book of John is so sweet and intimate. It's about comforting the close friends and students; encouraging them to rise up into their own inner power, their own inner Christ and continue in the nature of the meaning of their master teacher's name, Y'SHUAH.
Y'SHUAH - Hebrew. whose help YHVH is; deliverance; safety; salvation; Savior; Deliverer; helper; prosperer; deliverance through YHVH. The "I" (or ego-self identity) in the human raised up to the divine "I AM," (Fillmore, Charles.Metaphysical Bible Dictionary, 345.) which came to be called "God," from the Greek to the Germanic for "the Good."
It's also sweet and comforting for us, he's giving his close friends and students (like us) something to hold onto. "10 . . . I do not speak of myself; but my Father who abides with me does these works." and "12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes in me shall do the works which I do; and even greater than these things he shall do, because I am going to my Father."
In the Aramaic language, the phrase, "in the name of" always means in the nature of the meaning of that name. In Hebrew, all personal names and place names have very specific meanings, that often reveal a deeper meaning to the stories that use those names.
This is so beautiful, through the mystical poetic voice of "John," Jesus (tries) to define the difference between Spirit and matter ("the world"), that He (Jesus the man) is not speaking, but that God (the Father) as Spirit is speaking through him (his consciousness has merged with God's) and that God as Spirit is within us always and that all we have to do is keep the commandment (to Love God with all our hearts and minds and to Love one another AS our selves).
This whole passage is so revealing, so uniting, so universal, so inclusive. It's a shame that it has been used to divide and separate humanity. That kind of thinking is "the prince of the world" speaking. "I AM the way" is not about Jesus as "brand name," but as the Christ within us. Holy Spirit is not of the world, but lives within each of us. As we awaken to that spark of divinity within us, it grows and we grow in our awareness of That within others. "19 And the world will not see me, but you will see me; because I live, you shall live also."
In Peace, Love and Transformation,
Susannah
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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revmom13
Posts:3
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| 04/15/2008 2:24 PM |
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| The issue seems to be, how to talk with people who have been infected with the notion that "I am the Way ... No one comes to the Father, but by me" is a declarative statement. We want to say it is nuanced. It doesn't look like a nuanced statement. It doesn't look sweet, comforting, intimate. How, suebear, do we convey these ideas? kate huey tries to tell some of the back story. I think that is a clue. We need to tell stories. Question is: will the "infected ones" stick around long enough to listen to a story? |
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subear
Posts:770
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| 04/15/2008 2:42 PM |
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revmom asks: "Question is: will the "infected ones" stick around long enough to listen to a story?"
Does it matter? Is it necessary? There was a farmer planting seeds; some of the seeds landed on rocks, some of the seeds were eaten by birds, some of the seeds were strangled out by weeds, and some of the seeds fell on fertile ground and took root and grew. (or something like that).
Those who see the unity of all life see it, those who see separation see that.
I think what matters is what you wrote before, "God loves ya! Always has, always will."
And to *practice* the great commandment. Even when we fail to love "others" AS God and ourselves, we can at least try again and again. practice, practice, practice.
Loving-Kindness softens hearts and works wonders.
In Peace, Love and Transformation,
Susannah
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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ProudDog
Posts:509
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| 04/15/2008 8:41 PM |
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I think revmom's question is one that many have with this one. In a discussion with someone who says that "I am the Way ... No one comes to the Father, but by me" is a statement that sums up how salvation does and doesn't happen, how does one keep true to the theme of Jesus' farewell speech without being accused of 'ripping out parts of the Bible we're uncomfortable with'?
Additionally, how does one do that without sounding like they're going on the conversation 'attack'?
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-Kirk Moore |
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kate huey
Posts:50
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| 04/16/2008 10:09 AM |
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I was thinking about how the conversation is focusing on the "I am the Way" question, but the theme of the week is "A Place with God."
Perhaps we might talk about that, too....what do you think? What sort of place did Jesus go on to prepare for us? Does this image connect to last week's Psalm 23 for you? (Remember that it says that "you prepare a feast for me"...)
There are some things, I must admit, that I haven't spent much time thinking about, and the image of Jesus "preparing a place" for me is one of them. Psalm 23 and this farewell speech both describe a very busy and very loving God.
On the other hand, maybe we've concentrated so much on heaven (the place) that we haven't truly experienced the Way itself. Your thoughts? |
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subear
Posts:770
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| 04/16/2008 10:41 AM |
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re: "the place," "heaven" and "the way"
My thoughts:
"Heaven" IS "the way." The way I see it, "heaven" is not a "place" as we know of in the realm of space-time. Heaven is a state of mind, a state of consciousness. Heaven is (or, can be) right here and right now, amidst the activity and diversity of our daily lives. "The kingdom (queendom) of heaven is among you." For me, that means among US, in the spaces between us, within us, as us. Heaven is within you; I can see it plain as day! I can see it in the words that you write and in the intentions of your lives. I can know it by the time that you spend here, on this consciousness-community. Heaven is with the animals, the trees, the plants, vegetables and the flowers. In California, springtime is when the rolling hills are abloom with wild mustard flowers. That looks like heaven, to me. Heaven is a state of mind that we are free to choose, no matter what our life conditions look like. It's among us now.
"The way" is to be awake and aware to who we are and what we say and do. To be aware that we are One with God and One with one another. "The way" is to be aware of others and how we may contribute to their journeys, to lighten their load, or to shed light (meaning, understanding and compassion) on difficult situations and conditions. To comfort those who need comforting, and to rattle the cages of those who are complacent. "The way" is to Love God, Love Yourself and Love all others AS yourself. (they are).
So, let's practice Heaven today.
In Peace, Love and Transformation,
Susannah
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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ProudDog
Posts:509
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| 04/16/2008 4:01 PM |
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| I think the "prepare a place" and the "I am the way" work with each other as they console the disciples with words that say, 'Don't be troubled -- We're together now and we'll be together later. I'm not abandoning you and I'll be sure you get to where I am." |
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-Kirk Moore |
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revmom13
Posts:3
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| 04/18/2008 12:52 PM |
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| Excuse me for going off topic, but I'm having trouble with the new format. Perhaps others are too. At first, my registration was not recognized. I reregistered with new information. Now it is not being recognized. Each time I am advised that I am not authorized to post to this forum and advised to register. What's up? |
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Andy Lang
Posts:17
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| 04/18/2008 2:57 PM |
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| I'm sorry: I've just registered a new account and am not having the difficulty you described. Feel free to write me at langa@ucc.org with, if possible, a fuller explanation of the problem. My apologies. |
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Andy Lang
Cleveland, OH |
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subear
Posts:770
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| 04/18/2008 3:23 PM |
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dear revmom:
Do you "log in" before you try to post?
If you get here on a link from a message in your email box, it takes you directly to the forum where the message is posted, in order to respond you have to go back to "home" page to "log in." If you accidentally click on "register" just go back to "log in." (These are all things I have discovered along the way). Although, now, it looks like we can "log in" at the top of each page.
....And I'm off to Santa Barbara to "retreat" for the weekend. (breath....)
Love,
Susannah |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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