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ProudDog
Posts:558
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| 02/25/2008 9:25 AM |
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| Welcome to this week's Bible conversation about John 9:1-41. Kate's written a piece that explores journey, judgment and identification. I've written more of a rant. Take a look at No Limits on Love and Blind Rant and let's have a great conversation! |
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-Kirk Moore |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 02/25/2008 11:43 AM |
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Many people today say that they're "spiritual, but not religious." We could have a long and interesting conversation about what that means, but I think today's reading is a thought-provoking reflection on faith "outside the walls" - with the learned religious authorities stumped by this astounding work of healing done by an outsider.
And the man born blind is suddenly put in a very challenging position when he tries to figure out, first, how to walk sighted (that would be quite an adjustment), then how to get his bearings in the midst of the controversy swirling around him. It might be even harder to get his equilibrium while the authorities are arguing and judging and questioning. But he almost dances in his conversation with them, and cleverly asks if they themselve are interested in becoming disciples of Jesus. You can practically hear them sputtering in response.
Step by step, and actually rather quickly - within 41 verses - the man born blind comes to understand who Jesus is. The question Richard Eslinger asks, though, is poignant: How many of us, if asked where Jesus is in our lives, might have to answer, "I do not know." How would you answer? Is Jesus difficult for you to see in your life?
Do you think most people believe that Jesus can only be found "inside the walls" of the church?
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Kate Huey |
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greenrebel55
Posts:70
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| 02/25/2008 1:44 PM |
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| I get to preach on this text this week, and I have been living with it for a few weeks. On the one hand, I feel ProudDog's rant about John's infernal justifications rates a solid, Yeah, me too! But John's people were being called sinners and being kicked out of "church" (synagogue)for believing Jesus was "of God". So this discussion is for them. It's like, "See, you are really the hero. You were blind, but Jesus healed you. And you are strong enough to speak truth to the power of the synagogue. You can even step outside your family ties and survive." At least, I think this is what John is telling his people. |
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ProudDog
Posts:558
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| 02/26/2008 8:56 AM |
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| I like the way you reframe what I turned into a rant and make it have a sense of empowerment for someone who's been marginalized, greenrebel. I think both reactions to the reading are valid. |
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-Kirk Moore |
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sancho032
Posts:8
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| 02/26/2008 8:58 AM |
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| Kate-
I think it is hard for me to get a handle on what people believe about Jesus in my church. There are some who understand the nature of their faith must include a Jesus who exists outside the walls of the church. A Jesus whose focus is not just on the believers but is also focused on the excluded, the unbeliever and the sinners. And then there are others who come to church at 9:59 and leave at 11:01 and those 62 minutes are the only time in their week that Jesus or God or the church enter their minds. I try to preach and teach about the reality of Jesus and faith that exists beyond the walls of the church. A Jesus who is active in the world at all times and in all places with all people. I wonder too how many people are actually hearing the message? |
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God is Love! - Josh |
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subear
Posts:789
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| 02/26/2008 11:12 AM |
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sancho writes: "And then there are others who come to church at 9:59 and leave at 11:01 and those 62 minutes are the only time in their week that Jesus or God or the church enter their minds. "
How do you know that? ;-)
Peace, Love and Understanding,
Susannah |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 02/26/2008 11:16 AM |
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Yes, Sancho, I agree, and I appreciate your beautiful words.
I'm nagged by the thought of the blind man meeting Jesus OUTSIDE the walls of the religious establishment, which makes me think that Jesus is OUT THERE, not contained in our churches. Seems like we don't really go to church to find Jesus (or God) there, but to get centered and renewed by worship and community and learning and return to the world where abundant opportunities for giving, learning, sharing, healing, working for justice, worship, prayer, reflection all exist. To name only a few. :)
I once heard that church is more like a base camp that we return to regularly, but the climb up the mountain is the thing. Does that make sense to you?
When I was in school, we learned about "models of the church" - and all the language sounded like insider language - but base camp is something I can really relate to. I'd love to hear your thoughts, too. |
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Kate Huey |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 02/26/2008 11:19 AM |
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good question, subear, and one that reminds me of a conversation I had many years ago with a spiritual mentor of mine:
I somehow referred to my belief that everyone thinks about God a lot, certainly every day, and she laughed (gently) at me and said, "Kate, most people go days without thinking about God. You would be surprised."
I don't know if she was right or not, but when I look around at the way we all behave, I wonder if we at least fail to connect what we say we believe on Sunday morning with life the rest of the week. (I think about the joking references to people behaving rudely on their way out of the church parking lot. Not an exaggeration - I saw it for many years!) |
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Kate Huey |
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sjt8184
Posts:14
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| 02/26/2008 12:05 PM |
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Posted By subear on 02/26/2008 11:12 AM
sancho writes: "And then there are others who come to church at 9:59 and leave at 11:01 and those 62 minutes are the only time in their week that Jesus or God or the church enter their minds. "
How do you know that? ;-)
Peace, Love and Understanding,
Susannah
I know this because I was one of them. Only recently have I become more interested in learning and thinking about God and Jesus in a fuller context of life. For many, Church is where God is. And still for others, they think about God and Jesus yet do not attend church. |
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pstrmrk
Posts:16
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| 02/26/2008 2:39 PM |
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I like your observation Kate about Jesus being outside the church walls. It seems more and more people must be being drawn toward him according to a new Pew Forum study on the state of religion in America, where a growing number of people are unafilliated with any denomination or religion.
On my spiritual journey, it seems, I've experienced alternating moments of blindness and sight. When what I thought I knew (or saw) is suddenly turned on its head. Out there in the world its easy for our eyes to get clogged with the dirt of living. Then along comes Jesus with a little Divine Spit. And off we go to church to wash in those baptismal waters and suddenly we see things in a new way.
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"and they devoted themselves to...prayer" - The Book of Acts
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bjnr.portland
Posts:2
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| 02/27/2008 2:06 AM |
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| Hi everyone, this is my first time on your site and I am really interested in this discussion.
When Jesus cleared the temple it was because the temple authorities were forcing people to buy their sacrifices which they would offer to God for forgiveness. This radical Jesus was offering this forgiveness FOR FREE outside the walls of the temple. THAT'S AMAZING!
Then during the Reformation when Martin Luther posted his theses on the door of his church he was objecting to the church selling indulgences as a way of getting to heaven more quickly. Luther said that God wasn't accessed only in church behind the table rather he was everywhere if only we saw him.
At a recent lecture I was told that Reformation is cyclical and that the church is always reforming - my prayer is that we as 21st Century reformers keep, through the Holy Spirit, God and Jesus open and free for everyone inside and outside of the church.
Pastors and preachers need to enable their congregations to share their faith in their communities and workplaces.
Thanks for listening. |
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fulham
Posts:34
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| 02/27/2008 4:47 PM |
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I like your analogy of the 'base-camp', Kate.
I think, but not certain, that Archbishop William Temple described the Church as the only organization that exists primarily for those out side it. Clearly this sentiment has links with what has previously been said, but I still find it a little perplexing. Has anyone got some thoughts on this? Was he demonstrating a profound insight or just making headline news? |
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john p campling |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 02/28/2008 11:34 AM |
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Actually, I think I read that "base camp" analogy in a book somewhere. Or maybe I heard it in class in seminary. Not sure where I got it, but I've always loved it as one image for the church. Of course, there are many others. But most of the ones I've heard sound so inaccessible that people just don't connect to them. They seem to connect to base camp.
John, I've heard that said, too, about the church existing for those outside its walls, but I didn't know who said it. Perhaps it's both, because people definitely come to church because they find something life-giving there (I hope), but maybe we've too often had a fortress mentality rather than opening our doors and hearts to the world God loves, beyond our walls. We ARE the church in the world, and the building we call church is a home and a place of worship and learning and community....but if we exist for those beyond our walls, there's a lot to do and be when we leave each week. What would it mean to actually be the church in the world?
Also, I think it would affect our hospitality ministry if we thought that way. What do you all think?
I'm heading to Chicago this afternoon to spend four days with my twin grandsons (7 months old), so I don't know if I'll be able to participate in this discussion during that time (I'll try). Just thought I'd let you know, in case I don't respond to a question. Thanks for your understanding. |
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Kate Huey |
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subear
Posts:789
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| 02/28/2008 11:57 AM |
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re: base camp.
Yes, it reminds me of the story of Joshua at Jericho. After wandering in the wilderness (undisciplined thoughts) for 40 years, Moses passes on his leadership to Joshua. Joshua leads them up into the land that becomes Israel. But they come upon an obstacle, the walled city of Jericho.
But Joshua has a plan: Once a day, for six days, the army marched around the city walls, while the four priests carried the Ark of the Covenant and the rest of the priests blew horns. Each day they returned to their base camp. To rest. To revitalize. To return to Spirit. Each day they did this. Go out and return to Spirit.
The name of Joshua - represents YHVH (the Lord) is our savior; And the name of Jericho - represents the intellect, the external (as opposed to the internal, Spirit) or reflected state of consciousness. In this story, the intellect is closed, wall off, not open.
On the seventh day, they went out quietly, walking around the city walls seven times before making a sound, until Joshua issued the command, and they all shouted and blew the horns, and the walls crumbled.
This is a story about us. When our minds are closed. When our little ego-selves think we are separate and autonomous, we are like Jericho; we are in a Jericho state of mind. We become fearful and guarded. This is when our Higher-Self, that "still small voice," that Knows that "I AM", calls to us to break down those walls around our hearts and minds, to let God in, to rise to recognition of "I AM". that God already is "in," is within us. We just have to "be still and Know." And that brings us back to the value of the "base camp."
In Peace, Love and Understanding,
Susannah
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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greenrebel55
Posts:70
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| 02/28/2008 2:24 PM |
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You know, Subear, that the name Joshua and the name Jesus are the same name, don't you? Well, now you do!
Did you all notice how the healed "blind" man kept on talking about his experience even when he was kicked out of the synagogue (church)? In fact, his thinking and speaking became stronger and more pointed the farther away from the "inside" he got. I think that John was indicating that sight (insight?) sharpens as it is challenged. What do you think? |
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subear
Posts:789
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| 02/28/2008 3:57 PM |
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"You know, Subear, that the name Joshua and the name Jesus are the same name, don't you? "
Yes, Green, I know :-) I was going to put it in but I figured everyone already knew, but thank you for bringing that up. I think it is important.
Peace, Love and Understanding.
sb |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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greenrebel55
Posts:70
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| 02/28/2008 11:50 PM |
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| Ahhhh, that's what I'm getting at. The Jewish people already had a "He shall save his people". And he did a pretty darn good job of it. What did this "Yeshua come lately" do for them? Give them a land? Free them from Roman occupation? If you were a religious Jew who knew your history, what would you think of Jesus as a possible Messiah? |
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subear
Posts:789
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| 02/29/2008 11:05 AM |
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Good point. . . and good question.
When imprisoned, there are only two ways out, the material or the spiritual:
1. Plan an escape: dig your way out, incite a revolt, or serve your time (submit to authority).
2. Go into meditation, transcendence (Like Nelson Mandella - - and others).
What did Jesus do? He taught that the King-Queendom (Malkuta) of God was in Spirit; and this spiritual realm was within. This King-Queendom is not of this world. And this Truth will make you free.
The Temple establishment leaders were so busy guarding the Temple (material) that they forgot what they were about (spiritual). And that is what idolatry is about, mistaking the material objects for the spiritual truth.
They wanted a military-king (like David or the other Joshua) to rescue them with the sword. But, this Joshua, Jesus, (JeZeus?) was a spiritual savior, offering true salvation.
This is still relevant today. It's an issue we wrestle with all the time, the balance between the spiritual and the material in our lives.
Have you ever been to a church council or board meeting? There is a lot of energy about "the building;" And, of course, they are entrusted with the "business" of the church. . . but. . . .
-In Peace, Love and Understanding,
Susannah
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 03/03/2008 10:08 AM |
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Greetings!
I've returned from Chicago with lots of time on the road to think about our conversation, and I wanted to add a word about "what the church is" - for many people, I believe, it's a refuge, a haven, a sanctuary in the sense of safe space.
Unfortunately, sometimes, for the comfortable, we're tempted to stay there as a refuge from the challenges of the world, but I'm not really talking about that kind of haven. I picture the building itself as sacred ground that's safe for those fleeing harm or hatred, and I picture the church community - even when it's out in the world, being light and salt and leaven, as a warm, loving community that encircles us with God's love at all times, no matter who we are, no matter where we are on life's journey....
Well, it was a long drive, and this is what came to me. On to our next reading, about the raising of Lazarus! |
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Kate Huey |
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