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Subject: Lent Bible Study: Respect and Challenge (February 11-17)

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ProudDog

Posts:509

02/11/2008 8:22 AM
"Respect and Challenge" is our theme for this week's Lent Bible study. Kate's got some excellent background that addresses Nicodemus' nighttime visit to Jesus as well as the "Born again" question. I've focused on the last few verses -- especially the ones that talk about Moses and serpents. Take a look at Weekly Seeds and our Bible blog and let the discussion begin!

-Kirk Moore

fulham

Posts:26

02/11/2008 1:43 PM
It is very disconcerting when somebody comes up to you in the street and asks if " you've been saved" or " are you born again?" The response I want to make is; "it all depends what you mean by..............." I made that response once, never again because it led to disastrous results. Whilst standing in the pouring rain, I was subjected to a 40 minute one-sided Biblical discourse from a well-meaning young lady...and got drenched. What I would have liked to have said was, that any deep meaningful relationship between ourselves and God, is controlled fom God's end. I don't think that, other than the will for ' making a step forward ,' it is within our orbit of control.

john p campling

subear

Posts:770

02/11/2008 3:09 PM
Kirk: I just read you blog. I like your creative, intelligent mind. I took the equation of images in and up came a slightly different conclusion. I saw that looking at the image of a snake was the remedy for snake-bitten people. (snake bite memory) + (snake image)= healing What brought about the healing? releasing the memory of the snakebites, by seeing that an image in the mind is just like an image on a pole. It can't bite. so, (Kirk says) there's an analogy with the image of the crucifixion. (x) + (crucifix) = healing (and I'll add: through forgiveness) I sat with that for a few minutes, thinking about what does a crucifixion symbolize? "Injustice" popped into mind. What were the prophets always wailing about? Injustice and idolatry. If I put that where (x) is, we have (Injustice and Idolatry) + (crucifix) = healing (through forgiveness). The only problem is, (for me) is that the "crucifix" (and the ideas around it) have become sort of an idol in itself. The lesson in this (that I am seeing) is that it is we who must forgive, God already does. And the process of forgiveness is to look at our bag of hurts, see that they are no longer "real" (because they are in the past and all that is left is an image in our memory). Jesus tells the story about Moses drawing snakes on the pole, to show that we are being bitten by our own thoughts. Forcing those who were clinging to their past hurts (painful memories and resentments) to see that they are not being bitten now. And NOW is where we are living. Thus spake zannasustra. . . . (LOL)

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

katehuey

Posts:174

02/11/2008 4:25 PM
I am deeply impressed by the irony in this Nicodemus passage. Or perhaps it's better to say, the irony in how this passage has been interpreted. Doesn't Jesus try to get Nicodemus to get out of his head and his literalism, and to hear with his heart? Doesn't Jesus call Nicodemus to a life transformed, not a strict legalism about behavior, but a thing of the heart? Yet I feel unnerved by the sermon that follows the conversation with Nicodemus (beginning with verse 11), when the plural is used and we hear the voice of John's community speaking passionately about God's purposes for the world, God's intention in giving us the gift of Jesus. It was, it is, a gift of love. But that gift has been turned into a conditional kind of love. It's difficult for me to hold this passage in tension with so many stories of God's overflowing love for all. So the irony is that this same passage has been used as a kind of litmus test that draws a line between the "born again" and those who aren't. But there's a very specific definition that applies in this case, and to many folks, it feels like its own kind of legalism. It doesn't really bring grace to mind. It does give me great hope to read about Nicodemus later helping to bury Jesus. I get the feeling that he went home a changed man who had learned to listen with his heart, even if what he heard went against the things in his head and the demands of what he had been taught. Isn't John saying that the meaning of life, of "all this," is love?

Kate Huey

Preacherwix
New User

Posts:1

02/11/2008 5:09 PM
When I was confirmed (in an NYC suburb) about 1953 our seminarian/youth pastor who taught our class counseled us that when that (rather rude) question, "Have you been saved/born again?" was asked us on the street corner, we should simlply smile broadly and beam while we answered, "Of course!" and then move on. The whole point was that it WAS in God's hands. It was God's delight to "save us", to give us "life anew." It may not be quite that simple a response in a converstion between mature people of faith (or thoughtful people of no specific faith), but the questioner in this case is not generally looking for open, deeply searching theological discussion. She/he usually has a packaged answer and unless you have your umbrella and lots of patience and free time ...well... it's a waste of time. I still love Pastor Jim's advice and have used it on several occasions.

greenrebel55
51-100 posts

Posts:70

02/11/2008 5:44 PM
I wonder if our response to those who ask us if we are saved could simply be yes, isn't it great? Do we really have to set them right? Seems to me John has Jesus talking to Nicodemus on his level of understanding, not necessarily refuting him. "Are you a teacher? You know what I'm talking about." That's what I think, anyway.

shine

Posts:30

02/11/2008 10:12 PM
The story of Nicodemus seeking Jesus by cover of night took a different turn for me a couple of years ago. One day it dawned on me that Nicodemus, as a Pharisee, was a member of the religious elite who had all the answers. He was a member of the group that wanted other people striving to live the way that they wanted them to live. He left all that certainty to seek Jesus at night. I have struggled with some entanglements with fundamentalists for years...they seem to be people who want other people to believe what they believe, to be what they want them to be, to accept their views of God as the only view. It may be a stretch here (perhaps even unfair of me) to suggest that it seems that fundamentalists believe other people should enter into a relationship with God through them, rather than into a relationship with God...directly. It was freeing to me to realize that Nicodemus left the certainty of Phariseeism (which had all the answers, through them) to ask a question of Jesus who told him that he needed a direct relationship with God, a relationship which cannot be mediated by other people. Trying to look at this story as suggesting that God calls us into a direct relationship helps me peel off a layer of culturally-imposed Christianity of a type that doesn't make sense to me. We are all free to leave our culturally-imposed beliefs, by cover of night, and ask our questions directly. Thank you for listening to this rather muddled pondering.

subear

Posts:770

02/11/2008 11:00 PM
I'd like to remind us all that Nicodemus and the other representatives of the Temple, were Jews, as was Jesus, who spoke with Jesus as another Rabbi and that there was (and is) a tradition in Judaism of debating, discussing, dialoguing with one another about the scripture and law of the Torah. That's the way it was and is, (kind of like it is on these forums). The kinds of questions they were asking Jesus were not impertinent or disrespectful, but were openings for Jesus to shed Light and more Light. There have always been Prophets speaking Truth to power, and there was a tradition of listening to the Prophets. That's all, I guess, I wanted to say about that. -In Peace, Love and Understanding, Susannah

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

sancho032

Posts:8

02/12/2008 9:26 AM
When i read this passage I am struck by the birth imagery and the focus on being born anew of the water and spirit. "What would it mean for us to understand that we are born of the Spirit? Most of us think we know who God is, who God calls us to be, what God wants us to do. What if we were to stop telling God what we know, to recognize that God is bigger than our naming of God, and to listen for God's Word to sweep over us without direction from us? What if we did not hold back but allowed the wind to take us to places not on our agenda? What would happen to us if we listened for God to call forth from us that which we did not recognize as being possible? God calls into existence things that do not yet exist. God calls forth life which we cannot bring about on our own. What might God be calling forth from us now? Can we allow ourselves to be vulnerable to the untamed wind of God? Can we listen for what we have heretofore been unwilling to hear? Can we see in one another not something to critique or judge but rather the image of the God who has given us birth? God loved us first and loves us still, calling forth from us a life beyond our imagination. Such life is ours not because we figure out the “How to's” and did the right thing, but because the God who loves us breathes life into us."

God is Love! - Josh

ProudDog

Posts:509

02/13/2008 8:32 AM
Posted By sancho032 on 02/12/2008 9:26 AM Can we listen for what we have heretofore been unwilling to hear? Can we see in one another not something to critique or judge but rather the image of the God who has given us birth? I love those questions. I think in the whole "does it mean 'from above' or 'again' " question are questions like these. Are we willing to go against the grain and ask questions that we may not understand and seek answers that will confuse us?

-Kirk Moore

katehuey

Posts:174

02/13/2008 3:25 PM
Nicodemus' last words in the conversation, "How can these things be?" are haunting, aren't they? Mostly, he just asks questions, and I find his character very sympathetic...he may be sneaking in to see Jesus "in the night," but at least he's not fighting his questions and his hunger for the truth. And if he was there at the burial of Jesus, when it was really obvious just how much Jesus' truth threatened the powers-that-be, and it was even more dangerous to be seen as supportive, I think the answers Jesus gave must have been working on him a long time. Some of us take longer than others...

Kate Huey

sancho032

Posts:8

02/14/2008 11:12 AM
I am really struck by the alternate meaning of the greek word anothen in this passage. I think that Kirk may have talked about this in his blog, but I wanted to talk about it as well. Anothen has two meanings (born again and born from above) and most of our bibles choose the born again definition. For some reason the phrase "born again" conjures up negative feelings and I am not sure why. I find the inherent meaning of the phrase to be valuable but I think that some have come to use the term in a way that divides and separates rather than bringing people closer together. Being born from above or born of the spirit seems to be a much more meaningful and deeper use of the word. It reminds of what my focus in life should be and it tells us that we all have the ability to be born from above as Jesus was. This is a true blessing of interpretation for me since it helps open up the Kingdom to me and allows me to invite others into that kingdom without creating an us and them of born again and not born again. Just a few thoughts that have been running through my head. Peace

God is Love! - Josh

subear

Posts:770

02/14/2008 11:53 AM
Yes, we are born of Spirit, and the Consciousness of That, is where the "again" comes in. It's in the awakening to this reality of Spirit as our (personal) source and substance, AND the source and substance of all that is and ever will be. It's a big awakening. . . And it doesn't require a particular church, religion or theology, this is the Universal Reality. And the Awakening (the birthing) is necessary.

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

katehuey

Posts:174

02/15/2008 7:08 AM
One of the puzzling things for me in reading about this passage is just what you're addressing, sancho: the translation of "born again" and "born from above." It seems that Nicodemus heard "born again" instead of "born from above." So I guess I shouldn't be surprised that many others hear it the same way. And doesn't it tell us something about the power of translators! Wouldn't it be wonderful if Christians could hear this passage together with an understanding of what John's early community was expressing about their faith in Jesus and God's love for the world? Wouldn't it be wonderful if it could be shared without imposing the condition for salvation that so many have read in it?

Kate Huey

sancho032

Posts:8

02/15/2008 12:15 PM
I think what is most troubling to me in this passage is the strong restriction it places on who is "in" and who is "out." The Christianity I have found to be the most meaningful is one that welcomes people no matter where they are on their faith journey. My faith is beased on a journey and not on a set of doctine or dogma. Instead of placing restrictions on who was in and who was out Jesus meant to open up the Kingdom of heaven to all people. By creating divisions we can push people away instead of inviting them in. I believe strongly that the church needs to be a place of extavagant welcome because there are so many places in our world that are unwelcoming and exclusionary. At the heart of it...the true heart of my faith...I beleive quite sincerely that we are all born from above and the journey of faith and life that we are should be about living into that reality as best we are able. What Jesus is trying to do throughout his ministry is to get us to realize that no matter what we do and not matter what we say we will always be anothen...born from above! What a blessing!

God is Love! - Josh

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