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ProudDog
Posts:511
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| 01/28/2008 4:23 PM |
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| Welcome to this week's conversation - We're looking at the transfiguration story of Jesus from Matthew 17:1-9. Kate's provided some excellent background and setup to the Matthew reading. She ends with some wonderful questions about seeing the radiant glow of God's live in everyone. I've payed particular attention to the whole glowing face aspect of this week's reading. Take a look at Holy encounter and Face glowing and let's talk! |
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-Kirk Moore |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 01/28/2008 4:36 PM |
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I find that it usually helps to read a passage like this with what came before (and even what comes after). Just one chapter before this story, the religious authorities confront Jesus with a demand for a sign from heaven. He turns them down, of course, and tells them in effect to read "the signs of the time" - what's right in front of them.
Then, in this next chapter, Jesus takes three "key leaders" up on a mountaintop (where so many important spiritual experiences happen in the Bible), and they're given a sign from heaven they hadn't even asked for.
We hear about the reaction of Peter, James, and John when they had just a glimpse of who Jesus really is (not just at that moment, but always) - the beloved Son of God. But I'm wondering what those religious leaders would have done if Jesus' response had been very different, and he had taken them up on the mountain and let them witness the Transfiguration. Maybe, in his response to their demand for a sign, he's saying that they wouldn't accept an experience like that, even if it happened right in front of them. Maybe Jesus was saying something about being able to see with the heart. What do you think they would have done? What would we do?
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Kate Huey |
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subear
Posts:774
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| 01/28/2008 4:43 PM |
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Exactly!
This goes along with "abandon what you know." If we're so attached to what we think we know, then we will not be able to see anything contrary to our limited beliefs.
Thank you for these "inspiration starters." :-)
-Peace, Love and Understanding,
Susannah |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 01/29/2008 11:08 AM |
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Have you ever asked for a sign from God - consciously, or unconsciously?
Have you ever looked back and realized that you had one? |
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Kate Huey |
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subear
Posts:774
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| 01/29/2008 11:21 AM |
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In the Weekly Seed, Kate wrote: "Do you ever wonder what it would be like if we could see past outer appearances and witness the bright inner beauty of each person, each child of God? What would happen if every Christian saw, in everyone, including those "despised and rejected by the world," a beloved child of God, shining and radiant on the inside? What effect would that have on the world?"
This is the essence of "Namaste;" the traditional Indian greeting, from that place which is holy in me, I honor that which is holy in you. A very good practice for cultivating peace, Love and understanding, in the world. It is good and very good. |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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subear
Posts:774
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| 01/29/2008 11:47 AM |
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"Have you ever asked for a sign from God - consciously, or unconsciously?" Yes
and
"Have you ever looked back and realized that you had one?" Yes |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 01/29/2008 3:10 PM |
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I'm struck by the irony of Jesus' words, "Don't be afraid." They're on the way to Jerusalem, where he will suffer and die, and the disciples will struggle with watching and failing...it's just striking to me, that he would say, at this point, "Don't be afraid."
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Kate Huey |
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ProudDog
Posts:511
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| 01/30/2008 11:04 AM |
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| Do you think his "Don't be afraid" in this case is about something larger than "You just saw me glowing and with two dead guys on a mountain." or is it a smaller "Don't be afraid" about what they just experienced? |
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-Kirk Moore |
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subear
Posts:774
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| 01/30/2008 11:21 AM |
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I think this "Do not be afraid" is a re-occurring theme throughout the Bible and especially with Jesus.
I think fear may be our biggest obstacle to seeing the Truth. Fear, caused by the false perception of separation from God. Jesus came to remind the people of the "greatest Law" (Hear O Israel) is to Love God and one-another as we Love ourselves. The Truth is, that we are One with God and One with one-another. There is nothing else. There is nothing to fear. |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 01/30/2008 1:21 PM |
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When I was growing up and hearing this story, I thought that Jesus changed up on the mountain, or went through something that "transfigured" him. So I was struck by reading that what was really happening was that the disciples caught a glimpse of what was always true about Jesus, something so intensely beautiful and awe-inspiring that they couldn't bear it on an everyday basis.
It's such an incredible thing to say, that we believe Jesus is the Son of God. Amazing. Something we everyday humans witness in, perhaps, more ordinary ways. Those mountaintop experiences are few and far between. But I think God reveals who God is in both extraordinary and ordinary ways.
Still, I sometimes wonder if our worship services might do better at giving us some time up on the mountain. Or maybe we need to find time alone with God, to make room for such experiences. What do you think?
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Kate Huey |
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subear
Posts:774
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| 01/30/2008 1:49 PM |
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hummmm Kate:
Good question.
How do we manufacture, facilitate, or make the conditions for the numinous experience of the Divine, for others? (of course, there are no "others," as we are all One).
Through word, music, color, light or darkness, imagery, scent, ritual, surprise, anything to bring us out of our small selves and into the remembrance of the Truth of who and what we really are?
I'm thinking there are (at least) two kinds of experience of the presence of God/Spirit/the Christ in all His/Her glory. One is ecstatic and the other is in the silent Bliss of the transcendent, Jesus called "repose" the restful-alert state of silent meditation.
The ecstatic path can be brought about through dance, drumming, chanting, rhythmic music, emotional devotion, and the like.
The other is providing a quiet meditative atmosphere (as in Taize), quiet chanting, quiet devotional singing, ambient sound music, with good periods of silence.
How's that sound?
Peace, Love and Understanding,
Susannah |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 01/30/2008 4:10 PM |
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Yes, all those can be conducive to prayer, but I think I'm trying to express a deep need for worship on Sunday to be "sacred time" - somehow different from the sacred time of our everyday lives (yes, I understand that our whole lives are sacred, just as the whole earth is holy, even though we speak of "holy ground").
I find that I need time that is in an important way set aside, time that leads me closer to God, but in community, not only the time alone, on my own with God.
Once we begin worship, I think we're called to a different kind of consciousness, one that we share and one that helps us to calm down, focus, open our hearts and minds...so it's not just a "meeting" like any other meeting but a true gathering together of a community longing to be faithful and open. That makes the singing and silence and spoken word profoundly moving, in my experience.
When churches longing to grow and to be vital say that they "need to try contemporary worship," I feel wistful. I find liturgical worship that blends the new with the old, grounding one and freshening the other, just as effective and powerful in drawing me up to the mountain top, and preparing me for whatever lies ahead when I return to "regular" life.
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Kate Huey |
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subear
Posts:774
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| 01/30/2008 6:12 PM |
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Kate:
were you responding to my post?
I WAS speaking about "community worship" time. I know it doesn't look like traditional worship, (or maybe it does), because modern worship has evolved into a more casual event, even if it is ritualized in it's order. I know it's fanciful, but why not change things up, so God might "show up" in the unexpected.
Bringing in different elements that help wake up that part of our mind/heart/body that can see the Holy, the auras, the halos, the Light of the divine, it's possible that "mountain moments" might occur. But still, it's always a surprise. Spiritual experience cannot be manufactured, but it can be facilitated, fostered, given the space. Because, really, it's not God "showing up," it's US showing up, with expectancy, innocence and wonder.
Peace,
Susannah
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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greenrebel55
Posts:70
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| 01/31/2008 12:48 PM |
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I wonder if the clue is in the "expected" aspect? What is a mountain top experience? What do we expect of a mountain top experience?My hunch is that it's as individual as every worship participant.
I do believe, as you do Kate, that community can arrive at a mountain top also, but the community that arrived with Jesus at that particular mountain top was the classic 2 or 3 gathered together in Jesus' name. |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 01/31/2008 5:25 PM |
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I was thinking, too, about the impulse to put up tents to honor or remember what happened there...and our drive to build buildings that somehow become more sacred than the experience within (or without). It's as if Peter immediately goes into a capital project! :)
Also, I used to describe the worship experience at Pilgrim Church (where I belonged for ten years) this way: "You never know what to expect, but you always know what you can count on." Every week, the worship had an internal rhythm that was familiar, and yet there were "touches" particular to the season, or to some other important factor, that made it a once-in-a-lifetime thing.
Tomorrow I want to share a Thomas Merton quote about people shining....it's at the office. |
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Kate Huey |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 02/01/2008 10:44 AM |
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As promised, here is the quote from Thomas Merton: "I have the immense joy of being a member of a race in which God became incarnate. As if the sorrows and stupidities of the human condition could overwhelm me, now I realize what we all are. And if only everybody could realize this! But it cannot be explained. There is no way of telling people that they are all walking around shining like the sun....If only they could all see themselves as they really are. If only we could see each other that way all the time." (I found this in the wonderful collection of his thought called "The Book of Hours," edited by Kathleen Deignan.)
It sounds to me as if Merton had an experience like Peter's, but of his sisters and brothers - he had a glimpse of "the secret beauty of their hearts." |
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Kate Huey |
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subear
Posts:774
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| 02/01/2008 11:51 AM |
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| YES !!!!! |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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subear
Posts:774
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| 02/01/2008 1:55 PM |
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A Poem by Rainer Maria Rilke
I believe in all that has never yet been spoken.
I want to free what waits within me
so that what no one has dared to wish for
may for once spring clear
without my contriving.
If this is arrogant, God, forgive me,
but this is what I need to say.
May what I do flow from me like a river,
no forcing and no holding back,
the way it is with children.
Then in these swelling and ebbing currents,
these deepening tides moving out, returning,
I will sing to you as no one ever has,
streaming through widening channels
into the open sea.
(Rilke’s Book of Hours:Love Poems to God, translated by Anita Barrows and Joanna Macy)
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 02/01/2008 2:31 PM |
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greenrebel, I've been thinking about your post in the midst of this conversation about worship and people "shining" - and I do wonder what Peter, James, and John might have been thinking about on their way up the hill.
I also wonder what the others were doing! |
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Kate Huey |
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ProudDog
Posts:511
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| 02/02/2008 8:29 AM |
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| I've been thinking about the mountaintop experiences this week. I want each time of worship to be one that helps people to see God shining and filling them with love and hope. but I also fear those moments because they inevitably fade away. What are your thoughts? |
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-Kirk Moore |
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greenrebel55
Posts:70
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| 02/02/2008 10:44 PM |
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Hi, I'm back. I went to a Vitality event where David Schoen was this weekend. He kept calling me grayrebel, but that's OK. That's the color of my hair. And it tickles him to think I post here.
I think Matthew wants us to see into the heart of Jesus. I think Matthew wants to use words to explain something that words can't explain so he tells us that this wonderous thing that always happens when God is in the mix happened when Jesus was there. As Monty Python would say, "Nudge, nudge." Or maybe "duh". As to what the clueless ones were thinking? Well, what are WE always thinking as we trudge up the hill on a fool's errand to do who know's what for how long, but hey, it's a nice day for a little walk in the sun. |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 02/04/2008 11:22 AM |
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Yes, greenrebel, and it's a good way to close Epiphany season, don't you think - a glimpse into the heart of Jesus?
And I also appreciate your observation about where our minds are as we trudge up that hill...seems like the really amazing things always catch us off guard. But still, I think it's good that we trudge up the hill and see what we see. Maybe we should raise our expectations!
David returns tomorrow from his time with you out there in Southern California. I think I'll invite him into our conversation! |
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Kate Huey |
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