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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 01/22/2008 11:32 AM |
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| Here we are, deeply into Epiphany season, the season of light, and the disciples in today's reading seem to be blinded by a great light. They don't see their lives the same way; in fact, they walk away from them. James and John even walk away from the family business (and their dad, Zebedee), the boats and the nets and, we assume, the security they provide. When I read this passage, I think about comfortable, middle-class religion and how much we might want our faith to affirm our life choices rather than to call us out and away from what we think is important to what God thinks is important. Like a bright light, the gospel shines on our lives and shows us things that make us want to change, to turn in a new direction (which is what "repent" means).
But isn't it also true that most of us still need to return to our lives, changed, yes, but most days still fishing, still going out in those boats and cleaning those nets, and still wanting to be faithful and, in our own way, to "follow Jesus"? How do you think we can experience "radical transformation" and still live "where we are"? Have you ever felt called away from your boat and nets, to something completely new?
For more, see this week's Weekly Seeds.
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Kate Huey |
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ProudDog
Posts:558
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| 01/22/2008 2:21 PM |
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| This week we're talkig about following Jesus. Kate's posed some great questions about what that means and how we work it out in our lives. I've had some fun with the call of the first disciples and what I see as Jesus' church growth plan. Take a look at Called to follow and Church growth model and let's have a great discussion! |
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-Kirk Moore |
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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 01/22/2008 4:45 PM |
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| An interesting alternative this week is the passage from 1 Corinthians 1:10-18. Especially for someone like myself who will have an annual congregational meeting immediately after the worship service. Divisions, quarrels and strife. Not that I expect any of that this Sunday, but I have in previous years and churches. |
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subear
Posts:789
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| 01/22/2008 5:19 PM |
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Hi Kirk and Kate,
I don't think Jesus was about "starting a church," although he did have a message (and the destiny to share it). I think Saul/Paul, who came later, was the man for that organizational position. But I do like what you've done (on your blog) with that unlikely scenario. Does it always take people with "nothing to loose" to start a revolution? Or, does it just take enough fire (crazy Love) to move us beyond our comfortable patterns of thinking and living?
The other day, I heard somebody say, "we shouldn't be focusing on 'church growth;' a healthy church (vital organism) grows naturally."
I love what Kate wrote about "the season of Light" . . . inspiring us out of our "comfort," whatever that may be for each of us. Bring in the Light and the darkness just vanishes.
Kate's questions:
"The next question might also be about how to stay with the nets and feed the world, and still follow Jesus, too?"
I've often berated myself for saying "later" to the holy man (a long time ago) who asked me to follow him. But, now, I understand the Buddhist saying, "wherever you go, there you are" and the Unity prayer card that ends like this: "Wherever I am, God is." So, for me, it's not about giving up all of my worldly possessions, home and family to live the "spiritual life." For me, it's about making everything in my life have spiritual meaning. It's about living a Life in balance (or at least trying to), which includes feeding the hungry, healing/comforting the sick and the lonely, housing the homeless, and working for justice and mercy where there is none.
In our "comfortable" lives in the world, we can take periodic "time-outs" for silent meditation retreats. We can take "time-out" each day for our prayer, meditation and devotional reading. It's also about practicing and teaching principles for spiritual-living and practical-Living, so that others may be self-empowered, creative, and motivated to give as they receive. So, it's really about gratitude. I am so grateful for this amazing Life that I am (we are) living. I am grateful for the grace to learn from my many mistakes and move forward, knowing that God/Spirit IS always with me (and everyone). And it's about cultivating the Joy that continues to bubble up from somewhere deep inside my heart, even in the darkest times. The Joy that is the Light of the world.
"Do you think that this radical renewal might contradict middle-class, prosperity-driven theologies, for example, that seem to under-emphasize the call to work for justice for the poor?"
I'm not certain I know which churches you are talking about, but when I see a ministry like Joel Olsteen's on TV, in that huge arena in Dallas, (at first I was offended), but when I pause to listen to him, he's speaking truth to those who have identified with "victimhood" and he is raising their thinking to "self-empowerment" through Christ, to a place where they feel, "I can." [By the way, the Aramaic word, Malkuta, which is translated as "Kingdom" (or Queendom), has as its root, MLK, which points to the creative word, empowering vision, and on a personal level, "I can."] I see that he is doing good work. Very good work.
"If you encountered a church with words like "countercultural," "untamed," and "raw," in its mission statement, would you be drawn to participate in its ministry?" Well, yah! LOL (maybe).
In Peace, Love, and Understanding |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 01/23/2008 11:55 AM |
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Pastorbogy, I hope your meeting goes so well on Sunday that you won't even need the Corinthians text to remind everyone of what they're about! (I'm sure it will.) But isn't it interesting to read how quickly church fights - or at least tensions - arose? I guess they were human then, too.
Now, about the John/Jesus question: one writer said that John preached judgment but Jesus preached the reign of God. What do you all think about that? |
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Kate Huey |
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ProudDog
Posts:558
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| 01/23/2008 1:05 PM |
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I think you're right, Susannah. I was having fun at our (the church) expense with how Jesus operated and how our success-driven ways operate. I think it takes that unhindered love to nurture something that is ready to grow.
Kate - I do think that our prosperity-driven ideas not only under-emphasize the need for justice, they make that need invisible. Love and justice-driven ideas can prosper -- but I don't think that prosperity-driven ideas will ever be just.
Pastorbogy -- Those annual congregational meetings can be scary, eh? I pray that all will continue to seek God's love and justice.
I think you can find examples of John preaching God's reign and Jesus preaching judgment. I don't see Jesus' message and Johns being all that different in the grand scale. |
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-Kirk Moore |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 01/23/2008 2:06 PM |
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I just read a wonderful sermon by Walter Brueggemann in his book, "The Threat of Life." He's talking about John the Baptist's call to repent and what it would look like if we did: "Act as though you have changed. Get on with the task. Be productive of the sorts of behavior that belong to your new loyalty."
He goes on, of course, and it's beautiful, and it reminds me of the question about how to live in the world and still follow Jesus. Which is its own kind of repentance, or turning, to a new way of living, even in the world as it is. Brueggemann again: "Act the new way even under pressure in the old regime. The old regime is marked by oppression, exploitation, and greed. Even in that context, be at work for the new devotion to sweet Jesus..."
About the prosperity theologies: since I've been immersed in stewardship ministry for the past years, I've heard some talk about God wanting me to be rich, and some talk about how riches are a sign of God's favor...and you know where it goes from there! Logically, the poor are not blessed by God. But of course we know from the Beatitudes that they are. Blessed, that is. What do you all think? |
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Kate Huey |
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Dave@dirt-n-turf.com
Posts:9
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| 01/24/2008 10:15 AM |
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I am pondering the many wonderful and thought provoking
lines that you all have been blessing us with. None perhaps more important than
pursuing Kate’s question of following Jesus while living in the world. This
issue is facing some of our folks now.
It would seem that to answer the question of ‘how’ would be
to miss the question of ‘how not’. In other words, when the decision is to
either attend confirmation or skip for a girls basketball game, we can either
decide how to be a Christian while playing basketball (which suits our inner
desire) or we can say no, Sunday is for worship. Difficult decisions for a 13
year old (same age as the fishermen as Kirk points out) but should not be a
difficult decision for the parent.
The dilemma of the 13 year old is no different than the
dilemma of most Christian’s, regardless of age. How do we act like religious
people while pursuing our own selfish ambitions? In this effort it is easy to ‘fit’
as Kate says, Jesus into our lives and then feel sanctified in the process. The
correct way would of course be putting Jesus first as our scripture indicates.
Many powerful messages are spawned by these thoughts and
lessons. The question for me; in what ways am I like the fisherman that says ‘sure
I’ll follow, but I’m bring my net with me!’. Gives me visions of Linus the
Peanuts character!
Thank you to all for you thoughts. Blessings, David
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David Marquardt |
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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 01/24/2008 10:23 AM |
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Each week my secretary puts a quote on the front of the bulletin. I just read the one for this week, and then I read katehuey's post.
"Try not to become a man of success. Rather become a man of value." - Albert Einstein. (Sorry about the non inclusive language, but its from a long time ago)
It's sad that even in the church we so often define a person's "worth" by their material possessions. The disciples found something of greater value than material security. |
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subear
Posts:789
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| 01/24/2008 12:54 PM |
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I like Dave's highlighting of : ‘sure I’ll follow, but I’m bringing my net with me!’ with the fishing-nets (worldly means of sustenance) equated to Linus' security blanket, seeing how we truly are "fully human and fully spiritual beings," and what a balancing act that is for us. Not to mention that Jesus was calling the people (us) to disregard (at least) one of the ten commandments, to honor your father and mother. Okay, we do assume JHVH, "I AM", through Moses was referring to our "worldly" father-mother and not The "Father-Mother God" that we are to put no other before (Him/Her/It)? [this idea is just coming through me, as I type. . .] Jesus was asking (TELLING) people to leave their parents, homes, and families and follow him.
And I, still, would like to see this through an elevated consciousness, to see that we, too, are human and spiritual beings. We would not be living in "the world" if there were not something we were supposed to learn here. (IMHO) I think we really do need to learn to master the practical aspects of physical and social survival, we (still) need to learn how to Love God/Spirit (our Source and Substance) and to Love ourselves as God/Spirit Loves us, and to Love one another AS ourselves, because truly we are One, One in God and One with one another in God. “That they all may be one; as thou, father, art in me and I in thee." (John 17:21,KJV)
So, this earthly Life is a balancing act, with Spirit taking the lead (if we keep our focus). It is so easy to get carried away, lost in the material world of conditions, attracted to the sparkle, the "idols." That is what Spiritual Leaders of all religions have warned us against. Some go to extremes by insisting on asceticism (like John the baptizer?), and others go to the other extreme by preaching "prosperity" is the path to godliness. But, we are here now, and we have to master this balance between Spirit, mind, body, emotions, social (relationships, politics, environment, economics). And, our awareness of the Spiritual must be woven throughout. That's our assignment at "earth school." And Jesus had it right. Love is the answer. And that is the greater value.
Well, I'm off, for now. Gotta write a paper.
Peace, Love and Understanding,
Susannah
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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greenrebel55
Posts:70
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| 01/24/2008 2:06 PM |
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I wonder if we can put some love into being called to follow? Subear has reminded us that love is the principle. I wonder, Dave, if the burdens the Pharisees were putting on the people were something like the decisions between basketball games and confirmation classes? Yes, Jesus calls to follow, and some drop their nets and immediately follow. But some do not. Are they lesser followers? Evidently James, Jesus' brother, wasn't an original follower, but he was a leader in the post-crucifixion narratives. Saul/Paul actively persecuted early believers. I ran from the call to professional ministry for many years because I believed it wrong for a woman to aspire to such an office. But God/Jesus/Sophia finally prevailed.
I wonder what the back story is about the call of the disciples? How often did Andrew take Peter out to hear Jesus? How often did James and John sit with him at the local tavern/pub talking into the night? How many times did he spin out his vision of going on the road with his ideas? |
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subear
Posts:789
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| 01/24/2008 3:30 PM |
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Green,
I like what you wrote.
~Susannah |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 01/24/2008 4:06 PM |
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On the other hand :)
I wonder how much the prosperity theologies parallel the righteousness of those who appeared successful in that day. Jesus hung around with a lot of people who wouldn't have been considered prosperous (and some who were - he loved them all).
I don't claim to know - I just wonder about the things I hear preachers saying on TV, and then how their listeners translate them in their own lives. I saw a sub-title in this week's Christian Century that is nagging at me: "Lifestyles of the Rich and Religious." I wish I didn't keep seeing it every time I open the magazine - but maybe God is still speaking to me!
I wonder how non-Christians feel when they read world history and try to reconcile the teachings of Jesus with the actions of "good Christians" (like me). One of my favorite movies (as I think I've mentioned before) is "Brother Sun, Sister Moon," about Francis of Assisi. It vividly illustrates how far the church had wandered from the spirit of Jesus 1200 years after he died.
I long to be a loving, non-judgmental person, and I also struggle with what Jesus wanted us to do. It's hard to do!
What do you all think? |
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Kate Huey |
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subear
Posts:789
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| 01/24/2008 4:40 PM |
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Kate & all:
Good wonderings.
I sometimes wonder about the women ("of means"?) who (supposedly) supported Jesus and his "ministry" as they traveled around.
In Peace, Love and Understanding,
Susannah
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 01/24/2008 7:07 PM |
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| Yes, they certainly used their power for good! |
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Kate Huey |
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subear
Posts:789
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| 01/24/2008 7:14 PM |
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Kate wrote:
"I wonder how much the prosperity theologies parallel the righteousness of those who appeared successful in that day."
Did you mean "self-righteousness"? or "righteousness"?
~Susannah |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 01/24/2008 7:25 PM |
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We could think of it either way.
Weren't the women of means who supported the early church "righteous" - in a good way, I mean?
But isn't it easy, if I understand prosperity theology, to see our wealth as a sign of God's approval? Or maybe I don't understand prosperity theology, but only the way it's been interpreted. |
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Kate Huey |
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greenrebel55
Posts:70
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| 01/24/2008 7:53 PM |
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| There's a legitimate thread of prosperity theology or blessing theology in the biblical theologies. God's blessings are poured out on many, or all, or certain tribes, or people doing or not doing certain things. Even in The Lord's Prayer ~ Give us this day our daily bread.~ God, you guarantee to us today all that we need to live out this day. God's empire gives a daily living wage, and you don't even have to be a worker! And then we say it again the next day, and the next day, ... |
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subear
Posts:789
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| 01/24/2008 8:00 PM |
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Kate:
Yes, I think it's easy to make that equation, and a lot of people do. I don't think it's quite that simple, either way (thinking it's righteous to be rich or it's righteous to be poor). I also think that if a ministry is based solely on "prosperity" it's lopsided. Just as to completely ignore that aspect of life is out of balance. Money is just a symbol for the energy that we exchange for goods and services. Giving and receiving, gratitude and generosity are all spiritual principles.
I think there is a place for everyone and everything. la la la.
If the monasteries and missionaries (and even churches) were not supported by "householders" with a relative degree of wealth, they couldn't exist. And the monks and nuns living contemplative meditative life, contribute to the collective spiritual consciousness of the rest of us.
Yes, Green, trusting that God/Spirit provides for our daily sustenance, helps us release that "poverty consciousness" of hoarding, so we can be generous and share what we have with those who may not have.
-Love,
Susannah
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 01/25/2008 9:42 AM |
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pastorbogy, I've been thinking about your post and the way we value others.
It reminds me of the story of the person chatting with the passenger next to them on the plane, and then, hearing the flight attendant address that person as "Senator," they suddenly interact with him (her) in a completely different way. I know this happens to clergy a lot, too.
Money isn't the only thing that affects our "value" or "place." I'm thinking of the movie, "Atonement," which, along with the book, draws a picture of class boundaries that value some people more than others. Also, I'm reading Ken Follett's book, "The Pillars of the Earth," about the building of a 12th-century cathedral, and I'm having a hard time getting through the story's passages that vividly portray how cheaply human life has been valued. (The war scenes in "Atonement" - especially in the book - do the same, in the 20th century.)
It seems to me that Jesus valued everyone, and I love the way he saw to the heart and hungers of the rich and comfortable, too.
What do you all think?
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Kate Huey |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 01/25/2008 9:49 AM |
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Another thought: I wonder if church annual meetings would go better if somehow we could get the hang of that thing of valuing every single person...is that what Paul was saying, in a way?
Also, something I was wondering about in Weekly Seeds: Jesus got started up there in the region of "Zebulun and Naphtali," out there on the fringes, on the edge of the land, where Assyria first rolled over the people of Israel. So the "darkness" the people were sitting in, Matthew said, first started to break up in the most surprising of places, not at the center of things, in Jerusalem. God started out there, on the edges, and help came from the most unexpected of places. Does that ring true in your life? |
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Kate Huey |
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katehuey
Posts:174
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| 01/25/2008 10:45 AM |
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As Sunday draws near, I want to share Barbara Brown Taylor's take on the story of Jesus calling the disciples. She says this isn't a story about the disciples or what they did; it's a miracle story about what God is doing. It's about "God's ability not only to call us but also to create us as people able to follow...because we cannot take our eyes off the one who calls us...because he seems to know what we hunger for and because he seems to be food."
Her sermon in "Home by Another Way" is on Mark's version of the story, but it works for Matthew's, too.
We've been talking in this study about how to follow Jesus where we are, and BBT does a splendid job of reflecting on that question:
"Sometimes following may mean staying at home. It may mean letting the hired servants go and taking care of Zebedee when he gets too old to fish...[or] casting the same old nets in a new way, or for new reasons...[or] doing something different with the fish you catch, or spending the money they bring at market in a different way...[or] doing less every day, not more, so that there is time to watch how the light changes on the water, and how the happy fish leap out of it at dusk, happy to have outsmarted you one more time."
I just love her writing.
The entire sermon, like all of her sermons, is a wonderful meditation on the story. Even this short passage, though, gives food for thought on how to follow Jesus where we are, don't you think? |
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Kate Huey |
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ProudDog
Posts:558
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| 01/26/2008 8:27 PM |
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Jesus got started up there in the region of "Zebulun and Naphtali," out there on the fringes, on the edge of the land, where Assyria first rolled over the people of Israel. . . God started out there, on the edges, and help came from the most unexpected of places. Does that ring true in your life?
I think, looking at life in reverse, it's easy to see God starting out under the edges and from the most unexpected places:
4th grade Iowa Basics tests ("You'd make a good preacher!" Me "No way!")
18 years old- climing up a mountain successfully, but leaving friends behind to do it. A lesson in paying attention to all of the picture instead of just driving toward the goal.
Cleaning a toilet that had been smeared all over with "rubbish: :) - Sometimes there's lots of crap to take care of, sometimes you can just sit and think -- but you know that you're going to keep coming back to this place.
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-Kirk Moore |
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shine
Posts:33
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| 01/27/2008 8:24 PM |
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| I have found that I sometimes need to sit in the darkness a bit before I can even begin to experience a light. Answers are not always sudden. When between jobs a few years ago, I spent close to a year working in a day-care center as a one-to-one aide with a barely two-year old child who had just been diagnosed with autism. To be begin with, I didn't have a lot of guidance on what to do, so I simply did everything I could possibly think of to gain the attention and interest of a small boy who would just as soon avoid me and spin a toy in a corner somewhere. After about the 10,000th time saying, "......, look at me," it dawned on me that God is like that, saying, "Look at me!" I am like that, off in a corner, doing some not-always meaningful thing that is my current obsession, and paying little to no attention to a voice which continues to call for the 10,000th (or more) time. The floor of a daycare center was not a place I expected to meet God. In the spiritual life there are lots of "Oh," moments that silence me and put me back on the path. |
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subear
Posts:789
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| 01/27/2008 8:43 PM |
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Shine:
That was great! God shows up in unexpected places.
- Susannah |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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