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Subject: I'm New and I'm Exploring

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Searching
26-50 posts
Posts:30

04/03/2007 5:52 PM  
Hello! I am so glad I found this website. I was directed by a friend who is also new to UCC, and I plan to visit her local church soon. Here is my situation - and I know we all have a story - but my family is strict Baptist and my husband's family is Pentecostal. We have a gay son and another son who is an addict - doing better for the time being - so church folks can be rather cruel or at the very least not warm and fuzzy. We are looking to attend a church that will accept all of us, no matter what. It feels right here - but I would love to hear from those with similar family backgrounds or parents struggling with these issues.
iucc
201-300 posts

Posts:265

04/03/2007 9:14 PM
Searching, thanks for telling us more about yourself. I really hope you're able to connect with a UCC congregation where you'll know your family is accepted with a wide-open embrace.

I hope others with a similar family background will respond: you might want to post this note and your request on your introduction in the Introductions Forum.

My own background is that I'm single, 53 years old, gay, and one of the ministers for this community. Many of us in this virtual community are also members of the UCC, and some of us belong to churches where the doors are really open, and we don't "tolerate" people in spite of their differences but know we need them--precisely because of their differences!

God bless you and your family this Easter, and we hope you'll find this community a place of real blessing and healing. Feel free to join us one of these evenings for our daily prayer service at 9 p.m. (Eastern).

Andy Lang
Minister for Web Community and Communication
Local Church Ministries
United Church of Christ
Searching
26-50 posts
Posts:30

04/04/2007 7:23 AM
Thank you Andy, it's a pleasure to meet you!
richrthr
101-200 posts

Posts:102

07/10/2007 7:09 AM
Hi, Searching, just wondering how your quest is going?

As a gay man who has a partner who struggles with addictions, I am grateful for the UCC and my own church, GOGUCC (http://www.gogucc.com). Both have helped to strengthen me spiritually and help me find serenity in this storm of addiction.

Even drug abusers deserve our love - and help. Many times they don't want it, but they need it nevertheless. But help is not always what you think it is. The best advice I have in that respect is to be a pillar of support - and a shining example. Exactly what the UCC has been for me.

If you would care to discuss more with someone, feel free to contact me. I would be glad to help!


Richard Kiraly
Garden of Grace UCC
http://www.gogucc.com
Kimberly
New User

Posts:9

07/10/2007 11:59 AM
Welcome Searching,

I am glad you have found the UCC and honored that you shared a bit of your story with us.  I am rather new to the UCC myself (about a year now), and a third year seminary student who was raised in a strict southern baptist home.  My family of origin has rehjected me because I am lesbian (blessed to be living in a commited relatiohsip with a faithful and gracious woman with two beautiful, if not rambuncious, children).  I am beginning my work toward ordination this fall, and I feel at home in my family of choice and my church family, really for the first time in my life. 

I am an iGuide for the Tuesday evening prayer chapel, and would love for you to stop by sometime.

Peace be with you,
Kimberly
Searching
26-50 posts
Posts:30

07/10/2007 12:34 PM
I would like to thank all of you for your warm replies! I still have not committed to attending a church yet, but if and when the UCC is definitely my first choice. Being raised in a Christian home, I know where my heart lies. I'm just a bit disillusioned. My gay son has decided to leave the country, he thinks it's best for him, so he has accepted a position where he'll be doing AIDS research. I couldn't be prouder! He can't come out to my husband's family, because he knows he will be badgered and forced (scared with biblical references) into being staight! When and if he does, that will be his choice, not mine. My son with the addiction is still struggling, but he's better for the moment. We're a bit on the "outs" about another issue, but I pray and believe that one day he will be set free.
Searching
26-50 posts
Posts:30

07/13/2007 7:23 PM
Richard, I thank you so much for your reply, and your understanding. I am curious about your religious upbringing and how that has affected you as a gay man? My son has not come out to the rest of our family, because he knows what will happen. My son who is an addict tried to take his life last year, and as his grandmother was visiting him in the hospital, she proceeded to tell him that had he succeeded, he would surely be in hell. I know they will do the same with my gay son. It's a pity, both boys want love from their families.
richrthr
101-200 posts

Posts:102

07/14/2007 5:59 AM
I was raised Catholic, actually. I loved everything about the Catholic church, to the point where I even intended to join a seminary. Alas! My priest asked me some difficult questions in preparation for that goal, and one of those questions was with regard to my sexuality. I was devastated - and obviously derailed from my goal. I can't say I had a bad experience with the Catholic church - but after that I was no longer made to feel welcome.

How did that affect my sexuality? I was in denial my whole childhood - and unable (I felt) to talk to my very Catholic parents about it. I did not "come out" until I was 21, and in a town very far away from my parents' influence, and even then did not tell my parents until several years later.

It was worse for my younger brother, who is also gay. I was lucky enough to go to public school - he attended Catholic School - and he was the favored, the youngest, by nine years. Fortunately, by the time he was ready to "come out," I had already paved the way. All he had to do was say, "Me Too!"

Long term effect? My parents love me. They love my brother. But in each case that love seems to have a qualification - "I love you, but I don't agree with your lifestyle." I often wonder if unconditional love always come with a caveat like that, or if my parents missed the sermon that day. That caveat drove me away from my parents, and my church - I now live 2300 miles away from any immediate family. My brother never really flew that far from the nest, but even he moved nearly a hundred miles away to escape their direct influence.

I haven't stepped into a Catholic Church since, even though my husband, Frank, is also Catholic (doesn't attend). Instead, we sought out a church that practiced unconditional love towards gays and lesbians (the MCC). Even they did not have it quite right, but it was the best thing we had found, until the UCC (far better, with a clear understanding of unconditional love).

I'm not "out" to the rest of the family, except to my own brothers and sisters, and close cousins. This is not because they wouldn't understand (I don't claim to know if they would or wouldn't), but because I no longer need their validation, or their approval, of my life. Jesus knows who I am, and loves me anyway.

I'm very amazed that my faith has survived nearly ten years without active worship - but to this day I can still recite EVERY WORD of the Catholic Mass (I was very involved in my church, including Altar Acolyte, Usher, Deacon, Choir, Fundraisers, Youth Group and Volunteer Work). To this day it still feels funny not to be kneeling in church, and don't get me started on transubstantiation (grin)!

I have come to recognize that worship is a celebration - because Jesus loves me, not merely because I love Jesus. I have also come to recognize that people who want to be part of my life are not going to get the "edited-for-television" version of it. Either they love me for everything that I am, or I do not require their involvement at all. Does that sound callous? I hope not - it's just a basic truth.

As for your sons - noone wants to edit their family (or friends) out of their lives - everyone wants love. But who is really doing the editing, your boys, or their grandmother? Closed minds mean closed doors. All your sons can do is be good, sound christians and not become jaded from their experiences, and they will come out of it alright - hopefully with grandmother in doting tow.

Fortunately, your sons have you, a loving sincere person willing to do your homework and make the investment in their lives - that's a significant amount of love, right there. Between that and God's love, they have ample support to get them through.


Richard Kiraly
Garden of Grace UCC
http://www.gogucc.com
Searching
26-50 posts
Posts:30

07/14/2007 9:41 AM
Richard, thank you so much for your kind words. I must admit, I feel as though I don't completely deserve them, as I was not always this accepting. My husband and I, like your parents, had a very difficult time at first accepting my son's lifestyle preferrence. I am ashamed to admit that I was cruel, and said some very unkind things to him in the beginning, hoping to "change" him. I felt it was a choice he was making, as we are taught in the Christian faith, or at least that has been my experience with my affiliations. He was and still is hurt by my words, and there seems to still be a bit of "tension" but not nearly as bad as before. Fortunately, I had enough faith that when my son finally did sit me down to try and explain things to me, his question that finally resonated with me was had I "chosen" to be straight? He followed up by asking me how I could feel that he would make a decision like that knowing the difficulties he would face. I wonder, do you feel it has been difficult lifestyle for you? I was very angry with God for a couple of years, my mom was suffering with Alzheimers, she passed a year ago, my son who has always been, well, "difficult" was struggling with addiction, which left Matt, also our youngest, to be the "shining star". He excelled in school, graduated from Cornell, and now is off to Ireland seeking his PhD. What mother wouldn't be proud? But, there was this tinge of dissappoinment, I guess. No future daughter in law, and grandkids, blah, blah, blah... None of this his fault of course, but I needed to blame someone, right? So, God took the brunt of my anger. Fortunately, he's a loving God and understands, or at least I hope so. I don't know how old your folks are, we are in our early 50's which helps I think. Some of the older folks have an even harder time. We have since made a couple of very good gay friends, and met some of his friends as well. I love them very much, and I've no doubt Jesus does too. As far as our families go, we'll just have to wait and see. Only God can change their hearts. Peace and love to you and your partner! Robin
richrthr
101-200 posts

Posts:102

07/14/2007 10:24 AM
Of course, the single most important thing you can do for your children is COMMUNICATE. For that, Robin, you deserve those kind words.

Many parents, including my own, won't talk about it. Oh, they'll ask after Frank (How is Frank? Tell him we said hi!), but it comes off more as small talk rather than sincerity - they don't seem to want to be involved. Your son sounds smart - he knew what he was going to say when he sat down and had that talk - had probably rehearsed it many times in his mind - like all of us gays and lesbians. You ask, "I wonder, do you feel it has been difficult lifestyle for you?" I would say that life is challenging, no matter what sexual orientation a person is. In my case, I don't consider it a lifestyle - it's just my life. "Lifestyle" makes it sound like a choice - but believe me, I had no choice in the matter. I am what I am, and I was only kidding myself when I tried to pretend otherwise. Examining it from an outsider perspective, I have had my share of discrimination because I was gay (from family, friends, church and employers), I have had my brushes with hypocrisy and homophobia. I am fortunate to never have lost a friend or lover to AIDS or anything else. I have been blessed with good health. The sort of problems I experience aren't a result or symptom of my lifestyle - they are things that anyone could experience - a partner with a problem with addiction, financial struggles - those problems aren't partial to gays or lesbians. And anyone can be discriminated against!

My folks are older than you are, and their parents were even older! But I actually think that my grandparents were far more accepting than my own parents were - despite the fact that it was never discussed (at all). My grandparents made my husband feel welcome in their home, treated him normally and with respect.

That's not to say my own parents have not made Frank feel welcome, or that they did not respect him. But that caveat was (is) always looming with my parents. Although, my Dad (the person I least expected to be supportive) has been reaching out to me and Frank a lot more as he gets older. It was not always the case.

I have to expound on one statement you make, though: "Only God can change their hearts." It is true that God has the power to change hearts, but I believe he does so through people - real people like you and me. I consider it my responsibility as gay man to be a role model and a mind-changer (always doing so respectfully and with a christian spirit in my heart) - and I have a duty to gently educate those people within the sound of my voice and influence to help them realize that gays and lesbians are people too.

To that end, I am "out" at work, "out" in church, "out" in my town, and "out" to my family (to the extent that they involve themselves). I try to live by the motto "they will know we are christians by our love."

As for a parents' role - the journey to understanding is sometimes difficult, and I believe that God is understanding. Keep the communication lines open with your children and show them respect - and it will come back to you in kind!


Richard Kiraly
Garden of Grace UCC
http://www.gogucc.com
subear
501-infinity posts

Posts:770

07/14/2007 11:59 AM
Thank you. I learn so much from reading the entries on these forums. Not only from the point of views I disagree with but from those I do agree with. There was a (really long) thread on the UCCforums.com that had some very moving dialogue on it. Actually, most of it was argumentative, but some of the points that came out really got in to me like never before. I have, pretty much always had gay and lesbian friends, but I wasn't really aware of the depth and breadth of discrimination they faced. Reading the thread about same gender marriage from a theological and/or "Biblical" viewpoint gave me a deeper appreciation for my G&L friends. A person's sexual orientation is a deep part of who and what they are, it is not a choice, it is not a sin, (as in "love the person, hate the sin" that some "Christians" like to say). It's not a bad habit, belief, theology, religion or life-style. It's what they were created to Be in this life. Not the only thing they were created to be or become (as in vocation), but the essence of Spirit in Physical form. This, too, is what God is. This is not a "disability" or a "psychological disorder" The trick will be coming to some sort of compassionate understanding of those who are so afraid of homosexual human beings.

So I guess all those important posts will be lost - - now that the forum has crashed beyond recovery. But some amazing truths have been written. And that's why I like to read what other people are thinking.

Namaste,
~sb

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
Searching
26-50 posts
Posts:30

07/14/2007 2:55 PM
I'm the one who should be thanking you. I've learned so much this past couple of days. And actually, I had added a post that after thinking about it decided that wasn't at all what I was trying to say, and I edited it! So, let's leave it at this, that I am going to thank God everyday for both my children, for leading me to this website, and for the love and respect that you have shown to me :)
richrthr
101-200 posts

Posts:102

07/19/2007 7:04 AM
And I think that you managed to start an excellent topic - one in which there was much important information shared. Therefore it is up to us to thank you!

Richard Kiraly
Garden of Grace UCC
http://www.gogucc.com
Kara McKay
11-25 posts

Posts:15

07/19/2007 6:27 PM
I don’t have direct, first-hand experience with the specific issues that you are facing, but I can relate to some of your experience. My ma has mental health problems for which she isn’t seeking treatment, and it’s now been four years since I’ve had any contact with her. My husband is disabled, and I have some mental health problems, too (in treatment), and our old, pre-move neighbors were of the fundamentalist variety. It’s really demoralizing to be in a situation wherein your ma is telling you that she doesn’t like you anymore and your neighbors are coming over to tell you that your husband wouldn’t be disabled and you wouldn’t have to go to therapy if you’d just quit sinning and start going to their church.

So, I think it’s great that you’re accepting of your sons, and that you’re doing your best for them while also hanging onto your spiritual beliefs. I know you said in another reply to this thread that you weren’t always so accepting, but I don’t think that’s as important as that you’ve seen your way clear to being there for them now. A lot of people never change their minds about these things. I think that maybe they’re afraid that if they change, they might accidentally invalidate everything they believe, and so it seems more important to them to cling to perspectives that don’t really work very well. You’re not doing that, and I think that says a lot that’s good about you.

I just ran across the UCC last week, and one of the things that struck me while reading the websites was that the people here deal with people rather than with some idealized, PR photo of what they think people should be. They seem more interested in how people really think and feel than in telling them how to think and feel if they want to belong. In my online travels, I saw an article titled “Church of the Misfits,” and that title has really stuck with me. It’s comforting, but you know what? If enough of us so-called misfits find fellowship together, then it turns out that we have a place where we fit after all.

Best wishes to you and yours.
Searching
26-50 posts
Posts:30

07/19/2007 7:34 PM
Kara, how very sweet you are. I am still learning - baby steps! I am finding there is so much kindness and support here, and it's comforting to know that all hope is not lost in my search. I was reared in a fundamentalist background - fire and brimstone - and I have feared God my whole life. It never really made sense to me that if God was so loving, why he was always ready to strike me down when I made a mistake. But, the Bible also tells us of Jesus' kindness and love to those who were sinners (and according to the Bible we all are) - and how he rushed to their side when they were cast out by others. I really do prefer that story! May you find peace with your family and healing for your illness!
richrthr
101-200 posts

Posts:102

07/20/2007 5:37 AM
"where two or more misfits are gathered in his name..."

Richard Kiraly
Garden of Grace UCC
http://www.gogucc.com
richrthr
101-200 posts

Posts:102

07/20/2007 5:59 AM
oh... by the way... the worst part of Catholicism? The dirge-ish music! Argh! I just loathe music that just plods along and rips the spirit right out of you! Music in church should be a joyful celebration (in my opinion)!

I am told that I have a great solo voice - and I sing well in a group too - but I avoid joining choirs because I just can't stand to have to sing a song slower than molasses - beautiful lyrics and fantasmagoric arrangement cannot compensate for a song with no joy!

Fortunately, my congregation has a choir that knows how to be joyful - and somber, too - it's a good mix!


Richard Kiraly
Garden of Grace UCC
http://www.gogucc.com
Kara McKay
11-25 posts

Posts:15

07/20/2007 10:26 PM
Oh, I loved our music, and was really happy to see some of the same hymns in the local church's hymnal!  We used to sing the more upbeat songs, though -- stuff like "Here I Am, Lord" and "Lord of the Dance" and "Gather Us In." 

Kara
Searching
26-50 posts
Posts:30

07/22/2007 9:33 AM
I've only been to one service at a Catholic church. It was a funeral - so of course the music wasn't upbeat! Reminded me a little of Enya, and to this day when I hear her beautiful voice I remember that funeral! However, that's not a bad thing. The Pentecostal folks have a really upbeat service - even though I don't agree with their practices, the music is awesome! They dance and clap and use overhead projection so your hands are free to worship any way you choose!
Kara McKay
11-25 posts

Posts:15

07/22/2007 1:03 PM
Back when I was in high school, I had a fundamentalist friend, and I went to church with her a few times.  You're right about the music!  Very upbeat, and lots of congregation participation.  I couldn't keep rhythm if my life depended on it, but those services are among the few at which I can remember feeling comfortable singing.  With everyone joining in so exuberantly, I didn't need to feel awkward about my not-so-impressive singing voice!

Kara
richrthr
101-200 posts

Posts:102

07/23/2007 7:19 AM
I think that music is an important part of prayer - sometimes I am content to sit and listen to the hymns and anthems, other times I am moved to sing - since I am usually the person controlling the overhead projection system my hands are rarely free to clap or wave wildly.

There is a good variety of music in our church - sometimes, I'm ashamed to say, it bores me. This probably has more to do with repetition than due credit for the piece. I am not a person who likes to hear a song over and over and over week after week after week.

Now our Choir has been on vacation for several weeks now and I am really missing their work. They practice every Sunday usually and I get to hear them while I am setting up the projection systems. They put a lot of work into it. It shows in their performances and during service. Also they provide leadership for new songs, so that no one is lost.

My experiences are not limited to my own church - I also have heard performances, choirs, and music in other UCC churches in the Southeast Conference - and it may be because I now live in the south - that the music tends to be uplifting, spiritual, and energetic.

For me, though, it is not always how well they do the music it is how well I hear it - Where my spiritual being is at that moment. In other words, how is my relationship with Jesus at the moment. Having spiritual clarity generally helps me appreciate life, and music, a lot more.


Richard Kiraly
Garden of Grace UCC
http://www.gogucc.com
Searching
26-50 posts
Posts:30

07/23/2007 8:17 AM
I still haven't visited the local UCC to find out what type of music they have. I'm accustomed to both, having grown up with hymns, which I do still find comfort in, and having visited the inlaws Pentecostal church. I like to sing - and I love music! So, as long as they don't restrict me when the "spirit moves me" then it's all good!
richrthr
101-200 posts

Posts:102

07/25/2007 5:40 AM
so, did you visit yet?

Richard Kiraly
Garden of Grace UCC
http://www.gogucc.com
Searching
26-50 posts
Posts:30

07/25/2007 7:10 AM
LOL - actually no, not yet. I really don't know what's stopping me.
richrthr
101-200 posts

Posts:102

07/27/2007 5:36 AM
Last night a group of congregaion members called a Care Circle got together to watch "The Vicar of Dibley" on our multimedia projectors. It was a lot of fun!

Richard Kiraly
Garden of Grace UCC
http://www.gogucc.com
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