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Subject: Preaching Fashion

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Author Messages
Jack
51-100 posts

Posts:96

02/28/2007 10:05 PM  
Please try not to read too much into this topic. I was visiting the Christianity Today website and one of the articles was from The Boston Globe.

Preaching Fashion -- Minister advises clergy on style

The author has her own weblog, where she discusses fashion, including for clergy, among other things.

http://beautytipsforministers.blogspot.com/

Personally, I am the type of person who is more concerned with the music, liturgy, prayers, and sermon than what the minister wears to perform these tasks.

From simple black robes or a neutral Cossack, to "just a suit and tie", to more elaborate academic gowns and/or artistic stoles, usually highlighting denominational or ethnic/racial ties, different ministers use different vestments to establish their ecclesiastical style. I have worshipped with congregations where each has been used.

Does the dress/style of the Minister affect your reaction to the worship experience?

The diversity of UCC congregations and pastors, does tend to encourage a diversity of style, add in the fact, different areas of the nation have different expectations how a minister should look. I am confident the members this community have their own experiences.

I tend to agree the most with our Pastor Emeritus, “I wore a neutral Cossack to ensure the focus was on the worship service and not on my personal dress.” He found the Cossack would not interfere with what was required to perform a worship service. This was despite the Brethren tradition of ministers wearing a simple suit and tie.

If you are a minister, how do you chose what to wear? Again, I have no dog in this hunt. So it is just curiosity, not a “no real preacher would ever dress that way” gotcha.


Jack
Linda
51-100 posts

Posts:92

02/28/2007 10:33 PM
Does the dress/style of the Minister affect your reaction to the worship experience?


Absolutely not! I would hope that the minister would dress in clothing and vestments (or not vestments) in the manner that he/she is most comfortable with. I'm more concerned about what they have to say and how they lead the worship experience than how they are clothed. (Although I must admit I was fascinated with the shoe collection of our former pastor- they were always color-coordinated with her suits, even the turquoise and purple ones!)

Our current senior minister has variations in dress. The suit and tie is a constant. For "traditional" services, he also wears a robe (usually white) with a stole of appropriate color for the liturgical calendar. For "contemporary" services, he doesn't bother with the robe, and he spends half the service with the suit jacket off too. (He's also the drummer for our Praise Team- hard to play in a jacket.) That's a compromise that keeps everyone happy. There are people in our congregation who expect to see the minister in a robe- that formality means something to them. There are others- like me- who don't place much inportance on it.
Andy Lang
New User
Posts:0

03/01/2007 1:14 AM
Jack, your pastor wore a neutral Cossack? I don't see how that's physically possible, and the Cossacks were notoriously partisan.
subear
501-infinity posts

Posts:774

03/01/2007 11:02 AM
As a student of ministry, I have given this topic some serious thought. (LOL). Some of my minister friends have told me that people in their congregations think it is their civic responsibility to critique the minister's clothing and hair styles and then tell him/her about it at the reception line. It is not customary for our ministers to wear their robes at regular Sunday service (only at ceremonies), but I think the robe could serve the purpose of silencing idle minds (and wagging tongues). And I'm sure the shoes would be the only thing left, so my choice would be colorful shoes and socks. . . just to give them something to think about.

SB

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
subear
501-infinity posts

Posts:774

03/01/2007 1:03 PM
Linda:
About drumming ministers:
The rabbi who spoke to us last night about Kabbalah, admitted that he was the drummer in the band at the previous Sunday service. He wanted to get an experience of our church before he came to speak on Wednesday evening, so he asked our minister if he could join the band. I thought that was cool.

That made me think about your minister playing the drums. :-)

- Susannah

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
Linda
51-100 posts

Posts:92

03/01/2007 10:18 PM
Susannah- :-)

When I was in flux between churches, having left the RCC and trying to decide whether to join the UCC congregation I work for, I attended another UCC church when I was visiting my parents. That particular Sunday the service was preceded by the Praise Band. As the service started, I recognized one of the pastors as- you guessed it- the drummer in the band. I thought that was cool. I've only attended two UCC churches in my life, and what are the odds of both of them having drumming ministers? Somehow it seemed like a "sign" that I was in the right place, maybe because it was the antithesis of what I was leaving in the RCC- how many drumming priests have you ever seen? :-)

But we digress from the fashion conversation....
Alan Headbloom
11-25 posts

Posts:11

03/02/2007 12:27 AM
While I do pay attention to hymn and sermon messages, I am also very visually influenced. If a worship leader has particularly tacky clothing on, I notice. I've seen pasty-skinned ministers look totally washed out against a beige cassock--totally bland and uninspiring. If a person has no neck or hunched shoulders, a crisp collar under the cassock would add visual definition. Just because some of us are so spiritual and message-oriented doesn't mean there aren't others in the pews who don't interpret the world in a largely visual way. Bottom line: if you're up in front of the public, you need to consider the whole package you're presenting.

See ya, love ya, gotta run.
Linda
51-100 posts

Posts:92

03/02/2007 9:03 AM
I'm also a very visual person, and I do notice what people wear. I don't let it distract me from what I hear (at least I don't think I do.) Maybe the auditory influences are equal to the visual for me (I'm a musician- that would make sense).

When I play for worship services, I am not robed as the choir is, so I try to be aware of how I dress. I also think about that on a daily basis as I go into my classroom. I believe anyone who speaks or presents publicly should be conscious of their clothing choices- whether minister, teacher, TV news reporter, whatever- choosing clothes that are suitable for the occasion, and becoming to the wearer. I view the minister's choice of apparel as no more or less important than anyone else who is in front of the public.
Alan Headbloom
11-25 posts

Posts:11

03/02/2007 1:15 PM
I agree, Linda, that context is very important for one's apparel. On the other topic, you raise an important example. Some pew perchers are more auditorially oriented, others visually, and still others linguistically. My wife is an artist and pays a lot of attention to things like the harmony of the worship space, the design of the bulletin cover, and to some extent the clothing of the worship leader. When I sang in the choir, she listened dutifully (maybe primarily for my voice), but otherwise, she really doesn't care about the musical aspect of the service. As she grew up Catholic, the emphasis was on ritual and much less on song. I was much more immersed in church music over the years, so it's an important spiritual connection for my worship experience. Ultimately, worship planners need to account for all these needs/orientations. /// All that said, if the choir is great, and the sanctuary is aestheically pleasing, and the pastor is well dressed, but the sermon/theology stinks, we won't be visiting again.

See ya, love ya, gotta run.
goodstoryteller
51-100 posts
Posts:59

05/28/2007 12:11 AM
I am a visual person--lots of right brain activity. My wife complains---Can't you ever look at anything without thinking how you would remodel it. I think the pastor's dress needs to match the environment--blend with it. But not too drab--I like artistic stoles---not the package ones from the publishing houses. Something that is a personal statement. A few years ago when I was really church shopping I visited a "Bible Church" because several friends said it was so good---Wow what a let down. First the early service ran over twenty minutes into the service I came for. I came 15 minutes early so stood that whole time in the smallish lobby--not really a narthex. Not one person spoke to me-- When we went in after the previous crowd shoved their way out the "praise team led the service" All but one was shabbily dressed--looked like gardening or work clothes--hair not combed--Looked like disrespect to the church and those who came. Now I make no judgement of a worshiper coming in whatever--from the garden work or beach. But those leading worship should (there I go judging) be doing their very best for God. I do not think they had taken any time to practice either--there was a collection and then the minister came in from the back (for the first time) got up and began preaching. He was in shirt and tie but the buttons had popped above his belt and his fat tummy hung out. He had an outy belly button and it kept playing peek-a-boo. There was no scripture reading--not much of any prayer--The pastor quoted some verses--at least one---seemed totally out of the context. I knew the story well. We sang a oontempoary song--7-ll Seven words eleven verses. and there was a benediction. Again in leaving and standing around a bit after the service to see if I could bait anyone into offering a welcome---no go. I have no idea why this church draws the crowds it did. One of my friends who went there--asked me later how I liked it. My response--I value your friendship too much---I don't want to offer an opinion other than to say I don't think I'll be back.
tacenogeno
101-200 posts
Posts:111

06/05/2007 11:17 AM
Posted By Andy Lang on 03/01/2007 1:14 AM
Jack, your pastor wore a neutral Cossack? I don't see how that's physically possible, and the Cossacks were notoriously partisan.


(Andy...GOT it!!! hee, hee, hee :) )

I'M ONLY VISITING THIS PLANET!
emarw
New User
Posts:1

06/06/2007 1:41 PM
Jack mentioned the Brethren tradition of wearing a simple suit and tie. I grew up in Church of the Brethren and my dad wore the traditional beard and refused to wear a tie. He wore a standard dress shirt and usually black pants. No vestments/stoles/robes of any kind. The minister was "of the people" and he found it difficult to stay behind the pulpit and often came down to pew level during his sermons. Few people would have doubted his 'authority' despite the lack of churchy ornamentations.

I have experienced several ministers who wore elaborate outfits - and their substance seemed to hint at why they needed the outfit.

I prefer that the clothing not be a distraction in either direction. I'm much more interested in the message and the feeling that I've received a good lesson, inspiration, admonition or whatever.

Mike
Elizabeth Dilley
11-25 posts
Posts:18

06/06/2007 4:47 PM
Do more women ministers than men experience comments/critique about their outfits? I have rarely heard men clergy confess to receiving a great deal of attention for their dress - the only exception would be for those men who have an elaborate tie collection (one former minister here famously had a very soft, furry tie he wore sometimes, to the delight of the children....that sounds a little inappropriate, but it was not). But I hear about women being "subjected" to this sort of treatment quite a bit. I think that most of us in this profession know about wearing clothes appropriate to our context, but this goes beyond that, to a point where it is a way to accept or reject the pastor's authority. Or perhaps, we women hear those kinds of comments differently, given that women's bodies and dress tend to be objectified often in our society.




Of course, I get a lot of comments about my hair. I have been dyeing streaks of it to match the liturgical color of the season for the past several months, and this has generated a lot of fun conversation. It is now Red for Pentecost, and will remain so through Synod, after which I'll move to Green. Of course, I did this SO THAT people would make that sort of connection (inside and outside the church, and especially young people), so I'm certainly not complaining.



As for my own opinion about it, I am rather high-liturgy, so I like robes and stoles. I wear them unless it is absolutely impossible for me to make it through the service without passing out from heat exhaustion, and frankly, when I travel to other churches, I like to see folk in clergy garb for "traditional" services. For contemporary or emergent services, I am likely to be more open, but at 30 I am just too stodgy to change! LOL Seriously, the clergy clothes would not be a deal-breaker for me - theology is!
tacenogeno
101-200 posts
Posts:111

06/06/2007 10:48 PM
(Hi, Elizabeth!)

I'M ONLY VISITING THIS PLANET!
Pastorbogy
101-200 posts

Posts:121

06/08/2007 12:28 PM
I have two robes, a black robe my parents gave me as an ordination present 25 years ago, and a gray robe some of the members of one of my congregations gave me. They thought the gray would be cooler in the summer. It is slightly lighter weight, but I think they felt cooler looking at a gray robe in the summer. I like wearing a robe, I don't have to worry if my tie is straight, etc. I have a number of stoles of various colors, but for the past 8 years or so the stole I wear the most has all the colors. I have been in the handbell choir in a couple of my churches, and in one we did an African number. We were all supposed to wear bright colors, so I went to the Eden Seminary bookstore (I was in the St. Louis area at the time) and got a handwoven stole made in Guatemala (I think). The other stole I used to wear a lot came from that same church. The Sunday School kids made me one were they all signed it and then someone embroidered where they had signed. That was two congregations ago, so I don't wear it anymore. A month ago when we were getting ready for confirmation I thought I would wear my gray robe, with a red stole that has UCC symbols on it. The kids were not happy, they wanted my black robe with the rainbow stole. So that's what I wore.

This Sunday will probably be the last one I wear a robe at for a while. The congregation dresses more casually during the summer, and they encourage me to do the same. We have a special service this Sunday, so I will probably robe one more time, but then it will either be a shirt and tie, or even just a golf shirt. Otherwise, even with the a/c on, I pretty well soak thru a shirt. I work hard when I preach.
Elizabeth Dilley
11-25 posts
Posts:18

06/08/2007 2:57 PM
(hi Elmer! I sent you an email to your church's address....missing you at that other place; it's not the same without you)
subear
501-infinity posts

Posts:774

06/09/2007 10:11 AM
Elizabeth wrote:
but at 30 I am just too stodgy to change!


30 is way too young to be "stodgy."

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
Ben Franson-Wright

Posts:10

06/09/2007 9:46 PM
Posted By Elizabeth Dilley on 06/08/2007 2:57 PM
(hi Elmer! I sent you an email to your church's address....missing you at that other place; it's not the same without you)


I miss you too E. Definitely not as large and colorful! 8)
calypso
New User
Posts:1

06/11/2007 2:59 PM

I do volunteer ministry in a number of mainline facilities in my town.  I assist a large variety of mainline pastors who come to do weekly Sunday night worship at a large local retirement home. I see a wide variety of professional ministers in this capacity.  It is shocking how many of them not only appear sloppy but who correspondingly turn-out to also be unprepared, unorganized, and unfamiliar with the needs of the particular audience, etc.  A friend of mine, who is a retired-minister's wife, is always dressed neatly in a professional manner.  Her hair is always done, nice makeup, and attractive clothes.  It never screams "I spent 2 hours and thousands of dollars to look like this."  It doesn't scream, "I am outclassing you" -- it is more quiet and understated than that.  But she DOES look like an inviting person to talk to -- everyone instantly feels drawn to her.  She and her husband have both figured-out how to walk the line between looking professional enough to be credible and trustworthy, yet offering a public image that instantly makes people feel comfortable and almost like an instant friend with them.  They both have had 50 years' practice at successfully looking gracefully approachable, based on a belief that they have something valuable to offer to others and want to make it as easy as possible for others to connect with them.  The quietly professional look also gives credit to the fact that they earned the knowledge and experience sufficient to be able to offer ministry to others.  -- anyone can wear torn jeans or shorts, but that doesn't mean they are able to offer positive or helpful ministry.  A lot of the UCC Revs. put years and years of training into becoming ordained and prepared to help individuals and groups or churches find an ongoing spiritual path -- and then those same pastors try to downplay the intensive financial and personal investment they've dedicated to the effort to be able to help people -- and try to not use the "Rev." or otherwise try to get people to pretend they're not highly trained.  That really doesn't do credit to what the pastor has earned for him/herself.  (And by the way, I work in a UCC reg. office where the regional minister has a dirty joke up his sleeve for anytime people freak out when they discover he's a Rev.  But he also always looks neat and clean and respectable enough to be approachable and helpful to everyone -- even on his days off.)  And yes, as an example -- one of my fondest memories my whole life was the retired minister at our church's horsemanship camp, who like the rest of us, was sitting around a smoky campfire at night in our dirty cowboy clothes after a 14-hour day in the dirt and sweaty horses -- reading I Corinthians 13 to us, under the stars.  But if it's not horse camp, I would rather do day-to-day ministry with my friend, the retired-minister's wife.   You are a person of value, and each person you meet is a person of value, and your demeanor & ministry towards them should convey that -- and our subconscious minds, where our spirituality is housed -- is what sizes-up the msg. others convey in their appearance.  As "Clinton & Stacy" say, if you want people to respond to you a certain way, don't wear clothes that give off the opposite msg.:  if you have clothes for dirty housechores, don't present them to others during the 95% of the time when you're not doing dirtyhouse chores!

tacenogeno
101-200 posts
Posts:111

06/12/2007 3:32 PM
(Elizabeth and Ben, I miss you both very much!)

I'M ONLY VISITING THIS PLANET!
Elizabeth Dilley
11-25 posts
Posts:18

06/13/2007 3:24 PM
(Tacenogeno, the feeling is mutual!!! At least from my end!)
Lvmycats
101-200 posts
Posts:147

06/14/2007 12:35 AM
Posted By Elizabeth Dilley on 06/08/2007 2:57 PM
(hi Elmer! I sent you an email to your church's address....missing you at that other place; it's not the same without you)


Sure isn't!  Much less activity at the other place, too.  Not as much fun.
richrthr
101-200 posts

Posts:102

07/13/2007 6:04 AM
I'd say yes - appearance has a significant, undeniable effect on impressions by newcomers and members alike. Does this mean fancy robes and expensive duds? Of course not - but there are some churches in which artistic garb is far more appropriate and expected, while others are more conservative or traditional. I think each church has a mood that dictates what its representatives should wear.

Personally, I enjoy color and variety, including those seasonal colors and the "brand recognition" colors, such as those in the "God Is Still Speaking" campaign. It helps with identity and theme!

I especially enjoy artistic expression, creative words and joyful spirit from the "pulpit." What was it goodstoryteller referenced in another post in another topic: "When your celebrating--you don't skimp on the cake and wine." After all, if they aren't excited about God, I might as well be going to a Catholic church.

Richard Kiraly
Garden of Grace UCC
http://www.gogucc.com
goodstoryteller
51-100 posts
Posts:59

07/13/2007 1:03 PM
Posted By richrthr on 07/13/2007 6:04 AM
What was it goodstoryteller said in another post in another topic: "When your celebrating--you don't skimp on the cake and wine." Well would like to take credit for that but them words were Jesus words as quoted from the Message. Luke 5 from the story at Levi's house. Karl
richrthr
101-200 posts

Posts:102

07/24/2007 6:01 AM
I stand corrected - LOL - Jesus said that! I knew I liked that God!

Richard Kiraly
Garden of Grace UCC
http://www.gogucc.com
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