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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 05/15/2007 11:35 PM |
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Kathy, feel free to send me an email any time you want. I would be more than happy to discuss any questions you have.
Susannah, Quantum physics, whew. I though the Holy Spirit was a difficult topic in Seminary. :) How deep are you going into QP? I enjoy reading Hawking's lectures for "dummies", like "Does God Play Dice", but my aptitude for equations runs very shallow.
BTW, my name is David. |
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Stekala
Posts:46
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| 05/16/2007 12:37 AM |
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Quantum physics - my goodness! As a fellow student, I truly sympathize... :-)
Yes, I agree, this forum has been great for learning new ways of thinking about difficult subjects in Christianity and beyond. I've learned much from all of you.
And to Pastorbogy - David (I believe I already knew that) - thank you; I'm sure I will take you up on that!
Off to term papers of my own...
Kathy |
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"The shackles are undone/The bullets quit the gun/The heat that's in the sun..will keep us when there's none
The rule has been disproved/ The stone it has been moved/ The grave is now a groove/ All debts are removed" - "Window in the Skies" - U2 (third world debt relief - visit www.jubileeusa.org) |
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subear
Posts:774
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| 05/16/2007 10:40 AM |
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David & Kathy,
Re: Quantum Physics:
I don't do math. But I can understand Quantum theory- - - in the same way I can understand "miracles" . . . and I have faith in the scientists who do the math. - - - I just came up with that. Quantum theory, now (within the last 25 yrs) has started to be verified by experimental data that is indicating the reality of God as the ground of all Being (existence). This works if you are able to see God as THE Power and Intelligence beyond "a large man with a white beard in the sky," which most of us are (on this forum. . . I'm not sure about the theology forum at the ucc site).
Quantum "mechanics" is different from Classical ("Newtonian") physics because it is not mechanical. It does not work like a clock. It's amazing and wonderful. (Word = Form)
I'll get back to this later. I've gotta run now.
Blessings,
Susannah |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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keyless.chuck
Posts:58
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| 05/16/2007 12:12 PM |
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Wow -- quite a conversation that went on here. I fully appreciated the viewpoints everyone expressed.
I especially have to say thanks to Pastorbogy and Jimk for their efforts in expressing the non-literal viewpoints in understanding Biblical truth and presenting what I would consider progressive Christianity with such candor. It is because of the theology that you both presented that I came to the UCC -- thanks!
A final note about the discussion: Ben noted that works don't result in one being saved -- only through the expression of faith in Jesus is one saved. My question is this: Can't such an expression of faith be considered "works"? Isn't that "decision theology", something that is contradictory to the message of grace?
Thanks again to all parties involved -- you've given me lots to think about.
Peace,
Chuck |
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"We do not draw people to Christ by loudly discrediting what they believe, by telling them how wrong they are and how right we are, but by showing them a light that is so lovely that they want with all their hearts to know the source of it." --Madeleine L'Engle |
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Stekala
Posts:46
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| 05/16/2007 1:08 PM |
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Chuck, you make an excellent point about the works vs. faith issue. This has been a very difficult question, because the bible seems to make very clear that is by simple Grace that we are saved - that no works will ever be able to save us, and yet surely living with compassion, love, mercy, and humilty are necessary and wouldn't be disccounted by God. I think the issue lies, actually, with a differential conception of works by ours and the Bible's. I think that the works that the Bible is speaking of are more along the lines of actions, rites, rituals, sacrifices, etc. With this definition, we can see that indeed, all the actions in the world cannot make us holy. We are all human, and we will always mess up - we need forgiveness. This idea of grace is so central to Christianity, that we can ask for and trust in God's forgiveness. BUT, as we rely on forgiveness from God, Jesus very clearly states we must likewise forgive others. Just look at the Lord's Prayer!
If we are to be the hands and feet of Christ, surely works (love, mercy, compassion, humility, forgiveness, peace, etc.) are called for. Forgiving others is "works", but it is what we are called to do in response to the amazing forgiveness from God, and thus definitely expressions of faith.
Then, I think the thing to remember is it makes a huge difference how we view that term "works".
Just a thought.
Peace, Kathy |
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"The shackles are undone/The bullets quit the gun/The heat that's in the sun..will keep us when there's none
The rule has been disproved/ The stone it has been moved/ The grave is now a groove/ All debts are removed" - "Window in the Skies" - U2 (third world debt relief - visit www.jubileeusa.org) |
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subear
Posts:774
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| 05/16/2007 1:42 PM |
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And forgiving yourself!
I'm not certain forgiveness is a work.
I think forgiveness is a state of consciousness, a moment of transcendence, and in that Pure Consciousness we are One with God, if only for a moment. It's letting go of resentment for things in the past. If only for a moment. That's why Jesus said we must forgive 70 x 70. [or something like that- I don't do math]. Over and over and over again. There is a decision to forgive, but the actual forgiveness is a gift, a release, a liberation, a salvation from our self created bondage.
Forgiveness may be a key to Grace (?). I don't know, what do you think? (I'm going on intuition in this moment).
I think "works" are about living a good life. Doing good. Loving God and all others as Self. Nothing wrong with that.
With good works, the reward is in the deed itself. It's not about earning points. |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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keyless.chuck
Posts:58
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| 05/16/2007 1:58 PM |
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Hi Kathy,
I see what you are saying, and I do certainly believe that such works (love, mercy, compassion, humility, forgiveness, peace, etc.) are an appropriate response we should have to our own experience of the grace of God. However, my point above was geared more towards Ben and others who espouse a theology which states that "works won't get you to heaven", but then turn around and demand that one "choose Jesus" or "accept" Jesus into one's life. By doing this, they are contradicting themselves, as their salvation rests on a particular "work"; i.e., a personal invitation made to God. This is contrary to a grace-based theology, in my opinion.
But, I do certainly agree with you about our response to grace, and that is the key difference: A response to grace is quite different than a demand of allegiance to a particular doctrine. The former, while it is a "work", is not the catalyst towards what one would consider "salvation" -- it is a reaction to that "salvation". The latter, however, serves as the mode through which one is "saved", which then becomes "works righteousness", which is something with which Ben stated disagreement.
Peace,
Chuck |
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"We do not draw people to Christ by loudly discrediting what they believe, by telling them how wrong they are and how right we are, but by showing them a light that is so lovely that they want with all their hearts to know the source of it." --Madeleine L'Engle |
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bstritesky
Posts:41
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| 05/16/2007 2:10 PM |
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Hello everyone, I'm back after crazy weeks of papers, work, and finals. Now I'm at home for the summer and am eagerly looking forward to much more time in the Bible, especially with Greek.
Kathy raises an interesting dilemma. She says that our works do not make us holy. This fits exactly in line with the Word of God. Our works, regardless of good intention, are tainted by sin, according to Scripture. So this means that all persons, whether they know Jesus Christ or not, have a sin dilemma. Daily our sin builds up. According to Romans and the examples of the rest of Scripture, the wages of sin is death--paid either by Christ for the one who has faith in Him, or by themselves in hell. None of what I am saying is contrary to Scripture. Many of you have complained that I have brought much Scripture into this discussion. It is telling when people want less Bible and more opinion.
Subear, you seem to be utterly confused about Christianity and the Bible. According to Hebrews, it is appointed for man to die once and then face the judgment of God. There is no place for multiple lives or reincarnation in Scripture. You seem to have a lot of New Age spirituality influence in your thinking. I think we all should be going back to the Bible for what we believe. Not to find what we want to see there--but what is really there.
The Bible could not be clearer regarding the obligations of all persons before God. God is by His nature holy and perfect and just. Like a surgeon cannot have the presence of germs in his operating room, neither can God have in His presence persons whose sin is not covered by Christ. Therefore, Jesus came to die to become the substitutionary sacrifice, atoning for the penalty of sin--death--by His own death. Jesus requires persons to be born again to enter into the Kingdom. Being born again is not natural to man--it is a supernatural divinely-given gift through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus said people must be born again to enter the Kingdom. There is no greater news for the contrite sinner than that Christ has died to bring him or her to God. The nature of Christianity is not Bible-less inner spiritual reflection, but Bible-centered, Cross-centered, Christ-centered living in the hope of eternal life through faith in Him.
Please, if you are going to critique and refute what I have said, use the Bible in support of your position. Let us discuss this honestly and intelligently. Opinion has a place, but it is not the only ground of faith. |
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Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. |
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bstritesky
Posts:41
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| 05/16/2007 2:23 PM |
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Dear Chuck, let me try to respond to your comments.
Working for salvation is what God absolutely forbids. Romans 10:3 explains why:
Rom 10:3-4 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. (4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
This is Paul speaking of the Jews who sought to be justified before God not through faith, but through keeping the law, through works of the law. To describe faith in God through Jesus Christ as a work is confuse the kind of work that God forbids and the action that He demands. Indeed, something must be "done" for there to be faith at all. The gospel of Jesus Christ and His substitutionary death in the sinner's stead is to be heard or read and understood, and the person must believe and hope in Jesus Christ and His purchased redemption at Calvary. Also, to say that salvation is by grace with the meaning of grace working apart from faith is to mistake God's demands for repentance of sins and faith in Jesus Christ. God does not arbitrarily justify (counting sinners as being the opposite, righteous) people, but as the Bible shows, God justifies sinners through faith in Jesus Christ. There is no other way to be justified by God than through faith. Faith is not a work, but a hoping in and banking on the work of another--Jesus Christ the Son of God, slain for sinners.
Have I adequately addressed your question and concern? |
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Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. |
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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 05/17/2007 11:12 PM |
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Posted By bstritesky on 05/16/2007 2:10 PM
...Many of you have complained that I have brought much Scripture into this discussion. It is telling when people want less Bible and more opinion.
...Please, if you are going to critique and refute what I have said, use the Bible in support of your position. Let us discuss this honestly and intelligently. Opinion has a place, but it is not the only ground of faith.
This is, in my opinion, a misinterpretation of what some, including myself, have asked of you. We have asked that you not post a whole string of one or two verses. I, in particular, have asked that you look at the context of the verses you quote, because you have on at least several occasions used one or two verses to "prove" a point, except that taken in context the meaning of those verses changes. You have also been asked, by the moderator of the forum, to refrain from listing huge amounts of scripture because of an assumption that we all have Bibles, and can look up the passage for ourselves. Just trying to save bandwidth. Also, you have quoted entire articles, and a number of forums that I participate in ask that members refrain from doing this, and instead provide brief quotes, and a link to the entire article. This is due to copyright issues, as well as those extremely long posts that people don't read anyway.
This leads into the second quote above, that we would rather hear your opinion, not an essay written by someone else. We would also rather hear your interpretation of scripture, so we can discuss what your understanding of a passage is, and share our understanding of that passage, or others. What you have also been asked to do is to discuss issues honestly and intelligently, and with an understanding that NONE of us has a full and complete understanding of the mind of God, and that by sharing what we understand we can all come to a more complete understanding. This means that we ask you to refrain from considering yourself the final authority on all matters of faith, and the final authority on who is faithful and who is going to hell.
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subear
Posts:774
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| 05/18/2007 11:33 AM |
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I know this will not satisify bstritesky, but for those with open minds who are interested:
http://www.reincarnation.ws/reincarnation_in_the_new_testament.html
II Kings 2:11; Malachi 4:5; Mathew 11:11-15; Mathew 17:10-13, Luke 1:13-17; Mathew 11:14-15; Mathew 16: 15-16; Luke 9:7-8
I am not interested in arguing or convincing anyone to believe in reincarnation (or anything else); I am just showing that it was a part of Biblical and early Christian beliefs.
This poem came to me (via e-mail) this morning:
Seeing, in Three Pieces
Somehow we must see
through the shimmering cloth
of daily life, its painted,
evasive facings of what to eat,
to wear? Which work
matters? Is a bird more
or less than a man?
*
There have been people
who helped the world. Named
or not named. They weren't interested
in what might matter,
doubled over as they were
with compassion. Laden
branches, bright rivers.
*
When a bulb burns out
we just change it--
it's not the bulb we love;
it's the light.
*
~ Kate Knapp ~
(Wind Somewhere and Shade)
With Love and Blessings,
sb
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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bstritesky
Posts:41
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| 05/18/2007 11:51 AM |
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Dear Sue,
Perhaps you might want to venture to be open-minded about the reality of one-life then judgment. If you present a case for reincarnation from Scripture that is actually sustained by the texts given, then I might be convinced to reconsider my views. The texts that you have given might be able to be contorted to explain reincarnation, but it is hardly clear that from those texts the early church believed in reincarnation. The reincarnational interpretation of those texts forgets altogether about the possiblity of prophecy and type-fulfillment between the Old and New Testaments. Although you say that you aren't trying to convince anyone to believe reincarnation, your opening statement addressed to those with "open minds" shows that you are seeking to do the opposite.
You do realize that almost no one in the church today actually supports such a view? It has only been developed by liberal theologians and New Age authors seeking to syncretize all the religions of the world into one. New Age spirituality does not free the soul, but enslaves it to darkness. New Age spirituality and Christianity are in no way compatible.
But this all distracts from the main discussion at hand. Pastor, thank you for your response, but I ask that you please address the content of what I have written, not just the generalizations derived from my posts. I am not setting myself up to be the final arbiter of anything, but pointing to the final arbiter of everything--Jesus Christ, the Word of God made flesh, found in Scripture. |
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Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. |
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Stekala
Posts:46
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| 05/18/2007 1:41 PM |
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I am not setting myself up to be the final arbiter of anything, but pointing to the final arbiter of everything--Jesus Christ, the Word of God made flesh, found in Scripture.
Okay, I'd like to respond to this in particular, because I feel that this is a rather key point in our conflict of opinion.
First, I feel we should try to understand where Ben is coming from - that he is sincerely in belief of this certain interpretation of the Bible. I'm trying to see it from his perspective (forgive me!), and Ben, I really don't think you're consciously trying to act as the arbiter of faith and Christianity, but simply saying that that God, Jesus Christ and the Bible is. However, the problem is, no one here - I don't imagine - would refute that, as we are all Christians, but it is that we're talking about interpretations of the Bible. The Bible is so extraordinarily expansive, it can truly be used to justify almost anything (if you look hard enough, and completely ignore context) - and it has! The Bible has been used to support slavery, to repress women, to glorify war, etc, etc. I don't mean to say we shouldn't use Biblical text to support our discussion, but I would just like to point out that that little fact..
So, back to what I was saying before.. If Ben truly and passionately believes the Bible teaches these things, and that it is the absolute Word of God, I wouldn't say you are pompous or anything of the sort! The answers are there and they are clear and absolute. As for myself, I agree that God is the ultimate and only arbiter, but I don't have enough faith in my personal interpretation of sacred text ( I am mortal and have far from perfect understanding) to say that my opinions are those of God. Yet still, I can imagine - because I have many close friends who share your religious orientation - that through I presume a lifetime of Bible study it seems clear and totally trustworthy - no personal interpretation even used. I, however, often find myself thinking, "this is so amazing, but I'm sure I don't truly understand half of it, and certainly don't understand what it means all together." For example, we were discussing works/faith salvation. Ben I believe cited passages that do clearly state that it is by faith that we saved. But what about James? James said that without works, faith is dead.
So, I suppose I wish to humble myself in my understanding of the Bible. But still, I really do understand where Ben is coming from and I respect him for his faith. |
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"The shackles are undone/The bullets quit the gun/The heat that's in the sun..will keep us when there's none
The rule has been disproved/ The stone it has been moved/ The grave is now a groove/ All debts are removed" - "Window in the Skies" - U2 (third world debt relief - visit www.jubileeusa.org) |
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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 05/18/2007 2:07 PM |
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Posted By bstritesky on 05/18/2007 11:51 AM
Pastor, thank you for your response, but I ask that you please address the content of what I have written, not just the generalizations derived from my posts. I am not setting myself up to be the final arbiter of anything, but pointing to the final arbiter of everything--Jesus Christ, the Word of God made flesh, found in Scripture. I was addressing the content of what you have written. I addressed what you wrote that was a misunderstanding of what others had written.
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keyless.chuck
Posts:58
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| 05/18/2007 2:10 PM |
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Since Ben is posting here in his legitimate concern for our souls, let's cut to the chase and address this issue.
Does anyone here have a concern about the ultimate judgment of their souls by God? If so, please let us know so that Ben and anyone else with a desire to educate/comfort you can do that.
Correct me if I'm wrong, however, but it seems to me that everyone who has taken part in this discussion has expressed, in one form or another, their comfort in letting God be the final arbiter of the judgment of their souls. In the words of George W. Bush, God is "The Decider" and we all seem to be comfortable with that.
Ben, at some point you are going to have to stop attempting to persuade us to your thinking. You've made your case, and those who have disagreed have expressed their disagreements. Rather than drag this out into a group of people gathered around a dead horse with some heavy clubs, please consider that we've heard your case and have taken it to heart, and all of our souls are now at the mercy of God. Please stop the proof-texting and let's all just agree to let God's Spirit work within our hearts and minds to the end result that God desires.
Sound good? |
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"We do not draw people to Christ by loudly discrediting what they believe, by telling them how wrong they are and how right we are, but by showing them a light that is so lovely that they want with all their hearts to know the source of it." --Madeleine L'Engle |
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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 05/18/2007 2:27 PM |
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Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in. - Mark Twain
That being said, I believe we spend way to much time trying to differentiate between faith and works. There is no true faith apart from works. Faith without works is dead. Preachers and theologians have given aid and comfort to generations of supposed Christians by preaching that all you have to do is believe, because works do not save you. And with that assurance many of that multitude have leaned back in their pews and felt relief that they don't have to actually DO anything. By God's grace they may have made it to heaven, but I'm not so sure they truly deserved it. But I get no more voice in the matter than Ben. |
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jimk
Posts:35
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| 05/18/2007 2:39 PM |
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| I think Ben is admirably demonstrating the truth of a well beloved passage. "If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal." 1 Cor 13:1
I've had enough of this and I'm really rather dismayed that (judging by the number of hits) we are creating an audience for this deluded young man.
So, here is my final entry in this particular discourse. Ben, do you remember the Wendy's ad "Where's the beef?" I guess I'd like to ask you the same question. In all that you've written, "Where's the love?"
Jim
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subear
Posts:774
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| 05/18/2007 2:49 PM |
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Jim:
Mahalo and Aloha!
and I'm out of here too.
Love and Blessings to you all,
sb |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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Stekala
Posts:46
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| 05/18/2007 4:18 PM |
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Chuck, Amen!
We have BOTH made our points, and they are BOTH ligitimate views (if we ask that Ben, and the many other more conservative Christians for acceptence for our interpretations, we must provide it likewise). I believe this is a very important discussion, but it might be time to just try to have compassion, respect, and understanding for eachother, and realize that neither party is going to convince the other. This is what makes the UCC so special, that despite our differences of opinion, we are hear to love and hear one another.
Thus, I have an idea/request. I've noticed that, at least recently, there hasn't been a major use of the i.ucc prayer chapel services. I've only recently started participating, but I've found it a wonderful time in the evening to join with others in prayer, meditation, support, and love. In the UCC spirit of love over all other things, could we as writers (including Ben especially) in this hot-button debate please consider joining a service one of these days to reaffirm this spirit and pray for understanding?
Blessings, Kathy
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"The shackles are undone/The bullets quit the gun/The heat that's in the sun..will keep us when there's none
The rule has been disproved/ The stone it has been moved/ The grave is now a groove/ All debts are removed" - "Window in the Skies" - U2 (third world debt relief - visit www.jubileeusa.org) |
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keyless.chuck
Posts:58
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| 05/18/2007 5:01 PM |
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Kathy,
"but it might be time to just try to have compassion, respect, and understanding for each other, and realize that neither party is going to convince the other. This is what makes the UCC so special, that despite our differences of opinion, we are hear to love and hear one another."
Excellent points. That's one reason I'm proud to a member of a denomination that truly welcomes diversity. I certainly understand Ben's concern and respect his dedication even if I disagree with his theology and insistence.
Jimk, Where do you see the number of hits on this discussion? I don't see that reported anywhere, and think it would be interesting data to see. |
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"We do not draw people to Christ by loudly discrediting what they believe, by telling them how wrong they are and how right we are, but by showing them a light that is so lovely that they want with all their hearts to know the source of it." --Madeleine L'Engle |
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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 05/18/2007 8:48 PM |
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Well, since I've already quit this thread a couple of times...only to get sucked back in, I'm ready to pack it in. :)
Chuck, when you open up the "What's the UCC" forum, there are is a column for the number of views.
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Stekala
Posts:46
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| 05/18/2007 11:59 PM |
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To answer your question about the number of hits to this thread, you can see it when you go to the page for all the "What is the UCC" threads. It shows both the number of views and replies. I think it was about 140-150 posts and a bit more than 1,450 views.
Impressive!
Kathy |
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"The shackles are undone/The bullets quit the gun/The heat that's in the sun..will keep us when there's none
The rule has been disproved/ The stone it has been moved/ The grave is now a groove/ All debts are removed" - "Window in the Skies" - U2 (third world debt relief - visit www.jubileeusa.org) |
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bstritesky
Posts:41
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| 05/19/2007 2:33 PM |
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| Dear Friends: Thank you for participating in this discussion. I hope that much has been learned and that some were at least motivated to carefully re-examine their views. The on-line format of this discussion is not optimal for this level of discussion, for in my seeking to convey truth, it is easily misunderstood to be lacking in love, when really I meant to write in love, but just a cold reading of the words conveys a quite different reality. Perhaps I will be able to meet some of you face to face in my lifetime, and hopefully we can have profitable discussion then. But let us never be comfortable with our knowledge of God and Scripture. We should always be examining ourselves, to see if we are in the faith, the faith to which the Scriptures witness to be in Christ. Till next time! |
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Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. |
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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 05/19/2007 11:10 PM |
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| Ben, I am constantly re-examining my views. Were you motivated to carefully re-examine any of your views? |
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