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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 04/25/2007 1:35 PM |
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Posted By bstritesky on 04/25/2007 7:34 AM
Pastorbogy, it's one thing to know the name of Jesus or believe that he existed. The demons have this kind of belief. It cannot save... Ben, my post was in response to your insistence that "the Name of Jesus" must be preached, in particular in response to what seems to me to be your criticism of our missionaries in Turkey for the manner in which they must do their work. My point is that it is not that, for the example we are discussing, Muslims do not know the name of Jesus, but that they have not seen a good reason why they should leave their faith to follow Jesus as Messiah. All the Bible verses in the world will not convince someone who does not accept those passages are the truth. The only thing that will convince a person to change is the example of a life worth living. That is the true Gospel. In the time of Jesus there were a great many Greeks and Romans who attended synogogue and actively supported the synogogues, while not actually converting to Judeaism. Why? Because they saw something worth worthwhile and attractive in the lives of those who Worshiped Yahweh. Why did so many of those who went to hear John the Baptist repent and follow his teachings? (Which also prepared them for Peter and Paul and other missionaries who came to their home town later.) They saw something extraordinary in his life. Why were people changed by Jesus? They experienced something they never had before. And when the disciples ran out to the streets on the day of Pentecost, why were thousands converted. Not because they spouted appropriate scripture verses, but because something different was evident in their lives. Why do churches grow or die today? It has virtually nothing to do with whether they are liberal or conservative. I can show you examples of conservative congregations that are dying. I can show you liberal churches that are growing. And vice versa. What makes the difference is the spirit that is in those people. The lives they lead. Something about them that makes other people want to have the same thing. I'll tell you again, if you try to convince an atheist he or she should become a Christian, because the prophecies say so, he or she will laugh at you. The verses mean nothing because they don't accept the Bible as the authority for their life as you have. The only hope you have of changing such a person's life is how you lead your life, and how you treat them as a person. You are to them the gospel incarnate. You are hearbroken by ministers who don't interpret the scripture as you do, and have the same priorities as you do. I am heartbroken by Christians who through their lives and self-righteousness present a broken image of God's love to lost, hurting people. I do not say this is something that conservative Christians as a group do. I don't even know if this is what you do. I know conservative Christians who present a loving, caring image of Christ's presence to the world. But to be honest, this is unfortunately NOT what the perception of conservative Christianity is, because of far to many negative examples. I am heartbroken and just plain tired of the need to battle the preconception when people find out I am a Christian, and a minister, that I will immediately judge them and consider them beneath my contempt. That is the perception of Christians that non-Christians today have. I don't think it is the image Jesus wants us to have. I certainly don't think it is the image Jesus presented to taxcollectors and prostitutes.
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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 04/25/2007 1:53 PM |
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Posted By subear on 04/25/2007 11:53 AM
For those who would like a different point of view from bstritesky: There is The Center for Progressive Christianity:
http://www.tcpc.org/library/article.cfm?library_id=384
Celebrate "Pluralism Sunday" on May 28. Great article. I just quickly skimmed it, but it looks like a good explanation of how we can incorporate other traditions to enrich our Christianity. Kind of like how Paul incorporated Greek theology into Christianity to make Christianity more acceptable to the Greeks.
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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 04/25/2007 2:07 PM |
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Ben, as an example of the point I have been trying to make, are you familiar with the story of Nate Saint, as recently told in the movie, "End of the Spear"? Nate Saint and his fellow missionaries had to die for the Waodani people to hear, and experience, a message that changed their lives. If you are not familiar with the story, read it and then get back to me. It was the example of Christians who were willing to die, when they could have easily killed their attackers, that began a change in the Waodani people, at one time one of the most violent on earth, now some of the most peaceful. Bible verses were not going to change them, there had to be an visible example.
Contrast that with the attitude expressed by many Americans today, many who profess to be Christians, toward Muslims. If you don't know where to find them I can point you to any number of places where Americans, supposed Christians, are calling for the bombing of Muslims. All Muslims. Nuclear bombs. Eradication. Genocide. This is a demonstration of how Christians follow the command to love our neighbor? |
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bstritesky
Posts:41
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| 04/25/2007 4:24 PM |
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Dear Pastor,
Yes I am very familiar with the story of Nate Saint and the four others with him who were slaughtered by that tribe. What changed their hearts was not merely the exemplary lives of Nate Saint and his fellow missionaries, and those who followed after them, but the message of the gospel which confronted the Waodani where they were. They heard the message of their sinful state before a righteous, holy God, the supreme Judge of the Universe, and that after death a judgment awaited. What the Waodani needed was a compassionate gospel witness, given both in word and deed. These two must not be separated. Paul did not go as a missionary and tell the people to look at his life and love. He spoke the truth of Christ and the gospel and hearts were changed. Exemplary, compassionate lives are of utmost importance if the gospel is to be presented with any credibility. But the gospel is NOT compassion in deed alone, but the relay of piercing truth to a hardened soul of Christ's provision for their sin.
I too mourn when extremists on the "right" urge for bringing people into the Kingdom (or keeping them out) by the physical sword. Christ came not to bring a physical sword, but a spiritual one, to pierce to the hearts of men, convicting them of their sin and of their need for a savior. I would oppose such a person as extremely misguided and would confront them with Scripture which says something much different than he.
Actions alone cannot convey the sinners need and Jesus the Savior's provision. Therefore, any type of gospel outreach if it is to be considered gospel outreach is to be in alignment with the gospel both in word and in deed, in the truth of the gospel, propositional truth of Jesus the risen one crucified on behalf of sinners so that people might be brought to God instead of paying for their own sins in hell, and also with love and concern and compassion for the widow and orphan, for the oppressed of society, so that the Kingdom of God might expand as those who trust in Christ increase in number.
That's why I spoke in the way I did regarding UCC "missionaries," who shirk at the Scriptures and substitute the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ for a do-good-get-yourself-to-heaven "gospel" that cannot save. Outreach which leaves out or distorts the biblical gospel of salvation of Jesus Christ has forfeited Christianity and indeed makes Jesus an optional life accessory instead of Savior and Lord. |
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Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. |
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Stekala
Posts:46
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| 04/25/2007 5:43 PM |
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God does not delight in the death of the wicked (Ezek. 18:23; 33:11), but he must punish those who are wicked (which is all of us). If God did not punish sin, then he would not be just, and therefore could not be God. Therefore, because God is holy, he must punish sin.
So, in response to this response, I would like to start by saying that "'worked' so hard to be faithful to me..." was a poor choice of words on my part. You wrote in your post of works not being enough, as we are all sinners, and thus faith being the answer. I completely agree. That is indeed what I was saying. I wasn't referring to works in my writing of the hypothetical person, I was referring to faith.
If a person living in the hills of Ethipoia lives by deep devotion and faith in God (beyond what many Christians ever truly have), but is of the Muslim affiliation - simply because of where he or she was raised, do you think God would condemn them? If it is faith and love of God that God requires, what is this person doing wrong?
Forgive me, but I just don't believe that God places faith in Jesus above faith Himself in importance. If a person follows the two great commandments - love of God and love of your neighbor - I think that person has succeeded as far as humanly possible. Jesus HIMSELF gave these two commandments, and God sent Jesus to point the way back to God, not simply to himself. I revere Jesus and accept him as Messiah for the Gospel of God that he brought. But it is God that is the point.
Also, I would like to add that the possibility that Jesus Christ (himself as a person) is not the only way to God in NO WAY takes away from the faith and love we should have for him. I actually do believe that Jesus is the only way, in that the WAY of Jesus - his Gospel, what he was trying to teach us is the absolute truth for always and for everybody. If a person loves this way, regardless of what label they may have, I don't believe that God would condemn them for wickedness. And if so, this would be a very unjust system of filtering souls. |
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"The shackles are undone/The bullets quit the gun/The heat that's in the sun..will keep us when there's none
The rule has been disproved/ The stone it has been moved/ The grave is now a groove/ All debts are removed" - "Window in the Skies" - U2 (third world debt relief - visit www.jubileeusa.org) |
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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 04/25/2007 6:39 PM |
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Posted By bstritesky on 04/25/2007 4:24 PM
That's why I spoke in the way I did regarding UCC "missionaries," who shirk at the Scriptures and substitute the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ for a do-good-get-yourself-to-heaven "gospel" that cannot save. Outreach which leaves out or distorts the biblical gospel of salvation of Jesus Christ has forfeited Christianity and indeed makes Jesus an optional life accessory instead of Savior and Lord.
So you would prefer non-presence to a presence of witness through actions? There is no other choice in the example I gave. The law in Turkey is clear. We either obey the law and work within it, or our ministry and presence in Turkey comes to an end, and Turkey as a nation loses a little bit more of a positive Christian influence.
It is not only UCC "missionaries" (as you put it) who are forced to make this choice. A number of other denominations, more conservative denominations, are forced to make similar choices in other countries.
Before you so quickly deride these "missionaries" for their decision, take the time to read the struggle a current missionary goes through as he deals with the restrictions under which he functions and wonders if what he does is meaningful. Keep in mind that already this year Christians in Turkey have been murdered for their perceived efforts to proselytize. Approximately 10 years ago one of our offices in Turkey was bombed. Our freedom of religion in this country is easy to take for granted.
http://www.globalministries.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1381&Itemid=110
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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 04/25/2007 6:54 PM |
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Kathy, very well put. I see you are interested in the Peace Corps. I have a daughter in the Peace Corps in Kenya, doing HIV/AIDS education. I just got her a copy of the Qu'ran, and need to get it off to her. Not because she wants to convert, but because she wants to understand. I also got her a "Islam for Christians" book to help. Christianity is the predominate religion in Kenya, but Islam is growing fast. I also need to send another Bible to her. She couldn't fit her Bible in her suitcase with the weight limitations, so it was in the first box we sent to her in June. It is currently the ONLY box that never got there. I hope someone who needed it got it. :)
The ONE site looks very interesting, I will have to spend some time tonite looking at it. |
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bstritesky
Posts:41
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| 04/25/2007 7:10 PM |
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Pastorbogy,
I don't deny the difficulty present in many "closed" countries where gospel proclamation is made illegal, even in private conversation. There is indeed a danger in going to these countries of death, and missionaries know that. Many missionaries are going to these countries to perform other trades they have practiced, so that they can enter the country and be a visible, audible witness for Christ there. This is a situation in which disobeying the government must be seen as an alternative, as they are against the revealed will of God in hindering the gospel's progress. I do not agree with any proposal that would bring compromise at the cost of central Christian tenets. It would indeed make sense to do so if none of the religions really had the whole truth. Blending would then make the most sense because the more voices we have, the better we understand. But this is not the way that God has revealed himself. He has clearly revealed himself in Scripture, which clearly shows how he has worked to bring people into His kingdom through His Son Jesus Christ. We agree on this point.
However, we disagree on nearly everything else. I say that faith in Christ, not just a general faith or apprehension or trust in a higher being, but specific trust in Jesus Christ the sent one of God who is the only mediator between God and men, the only one through whom reconciliation with God is possible, the only one who can say, "No one comes to the Father but through me," is required for salvation (rescuing from the penalty of our sins). The Bible is clear on all of this. To accept another interpretation is to be very selective and intellectually dishonest. The departure from the Bible's authority in all matters of faith and practice results in what we see here on this forum, much speculation and personal reflections upon what people think God is. The Bible is replete with testimony to who God is, and much of what this post says about God is in direct contradiction to it. Our only rule for knowing God can be the Bible, otherwise we are not Christians and our faith and our God are subjective and speculative. I would much rather know what the Bible says about God (since HE wrote it!) than what we would like God to be. God is not like man, and his thoughts are not our thoughts, but are much higher than ours. Do not bring God down to the level of man--He is way above us. As our Creator, God has every right to do with us and with all things what he pleases. How merciful God is to reveal himself to us truly in Scripture, and we do not need binoculars or a microscope to find out what God really said and what He did not! |
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Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. |
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bstritesky
Posts:41
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| 04/25/2007 9:09 PM |
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Let me quote from the UCC Statement of Faith:
"He (God) promises to all who trust him forgiveness of sins and fullness of grace." What about those who do not trust him? Though there is silence in most of the doctrinal UCC statements on this point, it can be inferred that the response should be that their sins are not forgiven. It is a terrible reality that must not be trivialized or rejected.
If rejected, then why a statement about trust in Jesus Christ at all. One wonders then if trusting in Christ really forgives sins. If this was the case, I would definitely want the easiest way out, and I just need to be nice to people. I can do that on my own. Why go to church? Why read the Bible? After all, there are lots of excellent books to help me to love myself and others.
Is this not the dilemma facing this discussion? The above paragraph represents the reality of life if Christ is not the way, the truth, and the life, the only way to the Father. But Christ is indeed all this and more, and the Bible can be trusted fully. It doesn't need to be interpreted by experts, for even the simplest of people can read it and find salvation in Christ. But the Bible must be read and given the benefit of the doubt, given preference over my ever-changing passions. |
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Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. |
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Linda
Posts:92
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| 04/25/2007 10:00 PM |
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| The UCC Statement of Faith in the form of a Doxology (1981) refers to "You" in each statement, not "He". In every case, the "You" being referred to is not Jesus Christ, but "God, Eternal Spirit", as God is named in the opening line. "You promise to all who trust you forgiveness of sins and fullness of grace, courage in the struggle for justice and peace, your presence in trial and rejoicing, and eternal life in your realm which has no end" - this statement therefore refers to trusting in GOD, not specifically trusting in the human representation of God found in Jesus. Yes, trusting in Jesus and following his ways draws us Christians to God. Others put great faith and trust in God, yet find their way to God through other paths. |
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bstritesky
Posts:41
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| 04/25/2007 10:16 PM |
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Which would mean a shift in denominational thinking. Clearly it is a departure from biblical Christianity. I quoted the 1959 statement, which was adopted at the founding of the UCC.
I cannot consider one a brother or sister in Christ who sees no uniqueness to Christ. Christ is the God-man sent to earth to save people from their sins. How can that be optional? Either we aren't really sinners or God will just save everyone. It's hard to see him doing that when his nature requires him to punish sin. |
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Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. |
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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 04/26/2007 3:24 AM |
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Ben, I used the term earlier in a way that wasn't quite accurate, but here it is. The Statement of Faith, in all its forms, along with the Heidelberg Catechism, Evangelical Catechism, Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, and so on, are all accepted by the UCC as testimonies of faith, not tests of faith. The UCC does not require an individual, or congregation, to accept every line in any of these in order to be accepted as a member.
A number of people have stated a number of times that what is at the heart of our disagreement is a different interpretation of scripture. The disagreement concerns at some points differences in our understanding of what form the inspiration of the authors of the scriptures took. It also concerns differences in the translation of the original languages, as well as differences in our understanding of the cultural setting in which the authors were writing from, as well as differences in opinion of the changes in the texts that may have occurred over the years by people less inspired by God than the original authors had been, but were instead inspired by possibly well intentioned efforts to demonstrate that Christianity was more unique than Jesus himself had stated. I stated quite some time back that I felt we had covered the subject probably as well as we were going to, and I didn't see a point in a debate where neither of us was going to change the other persons mind. I continued to post in response to specific questions, but now we are simply back to trading posts back and forth. I understand your position. You aren't going to change my mind. I doubt that I am going to change your mind. No offense, but I remember back when I was in school and knew everything too. :)
Just one last question. Have you every actually discussed these things with a person of another faith, or one with no faith, and how did it turn out? Were you able to sway them to believe in Jesus? |
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baronsabato
Posts:78
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| 04/26/2007 4:52 AM |
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Hey there Ben!
I'm a college student too (well, just graduated) and I'd like to welcome you to this community. It's always nice to see someone my age who is passionate for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I definitely don't have time to go through everything you've posted and reply to what you have to say, but I'll just toss in my two cents: salvation is not dependent on anything we do, not good works, not the capacity to believe certain doctrines. Salvation is wholly and utterly dependent on the grace of God. Our faith in God is not something we do on our own but the result of God's saving grace; faith in Jesus is a gift that helps us be light for this world. But perhaps God's grace results in expressions of faith other than Christianity. I do affirm, as you do, that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life; however, I believe that Jesus Christ can be found in people who aren't Christians.
What I do know, however, is that a life touched by grace can't stay content when the world is broken, wars are tearing us apart, and our brothers and sisters- of whatever faith- are dying of hunger, disease, and genocide.
I believe the missionaries who partner with other faiths are responding to this grace, whether they are trying to convert non-Christians or not. This is certainly evangelism, although it may be different than what you're used to. I believe evangelism shouldn't be seen as something with the goal of winning souls to Christ in mind: evangelism should be the authentic, honest, and joyful expression of a life built on the grace of God.
So yes, evangelism is important, but only if it comes naturally out of our hearts. It stops being something we do, but something God works through us. If we are truly honest, and truly authentic in our response to how God's grace has touched us, I believe God's grace will touch others as well. So perhaps it's possible that God will use us to introduce others to Jesus Christ even if we never make a conscious effort to convert them. |
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"the whole irreducible point of the faith,
God thrown in human waste, submerged and shining.
We have grown used to beauty without horror.
We have grown used to useless beauty." |
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Stekala
Posts:46
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| 04/27/2007 1:43 AM |
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| To Pastorbogy, thank you so much for your reply to my post!
I cannot tell you how happy I was to hear that your daughter is with the Peace Corps in Africa. I am very much hoping to serve in Africa when the time comes, but I have never actually spoken with someone who has served or has a loved one serving there. I have had the pleasure to hear the accounts of a family who has a daughter serving in Mongolia, which sounds fascinating, but I just can't ignore the call to Africa.
I also so admire your and your daughter's efforts to understand the Muslim faith that is such a huge part of the human fabric!
And yes, The ONE Campaign is a wonderful and so needed campaign to build the movement to fight extreme poverty and disease all around the world. Perhaps you saw the American Idol Gives Back special this week? I am NOT a huge AI fan, but I was so excited to see that they - the most watched show on television - put together such a huge event to raise awareness for this issue. They also managed to raise over $35 million dollars. It was truly a great thing to see, and it got so much support from America! Anywho, I'm very glad you're looking into it!
Sorry, I know this was rather unrelated to Interfaith Relations - 'will write concerning that tomorrow! |
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"The shackles are undone/The bullets quit the gun/The heat that's in the sun..will keep us when there's none
The rule has been disproved/ The stone it has been moved/ The grave is now a groove/ All debts are removed" - "Window in the Skies" - U2 (third world debt relief - visit www.jubileeusa.org) |
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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 04/27/2007 10:36 AM |
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| Kathy, I would be glad to talk with you more about the Peace Corps and Africa, and even put you in touch with my daughter. She had several people she corresponded with who had been there, and it helped her immensely. Since it is off topic here, send me an email if you are interested. By the end of September, if all goes according to plan (the Peace Corps sometimes moves rather slowly, I will have two daughters in Africa in the PC. |
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bstritesky
Posts:41
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| 04/27/2007 11:28 AM |
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Let's get back to the heart of this issue: what Christianity is. Christianity is the gathering of believers the world over who confess Jesus Christ as the only Lord and Savior. It is not limited to any class or age or gender, but it is limited in who indeed do confess Jesus Christ as Lord. This is the whole movement of history, that Jesus Christ be recognized and professed as Lord by all:
Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, (10) so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, (11) and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Every knee should bow to Jesus! This is how God the Father gets glory, not in doing an end-run around Jesus, but through confessing Him as Lord and Savior. Why should this not be sought here on earth? Indeed it must be sought, for that is why Jesus sent his disciples to go and to teach, with words, so that people might hear the gospel, repent, believe in Jesus Christ, and do good works so that they might bear witness with their entire lives (in WORD and in deed) to the gospel. The gospel of Jesus is not communicated to persons through actions alone; it must be accompanied with words that bring sinners to repentance and faith in Christ Jesus alone.
I have given so many verses above, which give the indication of the movement of the New Testament and of Scripture to bring all things into submission to Jesus, to the glory of God the Father. You can choose not to believe what the Bible says, but do not say that the Bible does not say what it really says.
Paul warned the Galatians:
Galatians 1:8-9 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. (9) As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
What was Paul's gospel?
1Corinthians 15:1-8 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, (2) and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. (3) For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, (4) that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, (5) and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. (6) Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. (7) Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. (8) Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
Jesus died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, what the whole Old Testament was pointing towards. But look further at what Paul had to say:
Romans 3:19-26 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. (20) For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-- (22) the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (26) It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Further, the gospel of Jesus Christ brings about a reconciliation between a God who is angry at us and our sin, and man. Jesus is the only mediator of this reconciliation, through faith:
Romans 5:10-11 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. (11) More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Indeed we were enemies of God by nature, and until God saves us through faith in Jesus Christ, we are still enemies of God, unreconciled to Him, with His wrath upon us. Faith in Christ is not optional for reconciliation to God.
In his mercy, God sent forth His Son to be a propitiation, a divine wrath-remover, for those who have faith in Jesus. Clear as day. Don't say the Bible doesn't say this. But don't deny the gospel of Jesus Christ and say that you don't believe it. To preach anything else is to preach another gospel which Paul and the Book of Revelation both pronounce their condemnations upon. This is a serious matter. Preaching another gospel will bring great judgment upon that person by God. God is a God of great love in compassion in choosing to save sinners who deserved anything but salvation. He has brought this salvation near in Christ Jesus. Do not hinder the biblical gospel and bring the judgment of God upon your life by preaching a different gospel. Maybe you don't believe this. Not believing something does not change the truth. I plead with you to heed Scripture and see if you indeed are in the faith, the faith in Christ which the Bible describes as the only way to eternal bliss with God in heaven. |
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Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. |
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bstritesky
Posts:41
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| 04/27/2007 11:53 AM |
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Baronsabato:
Hey there Ben!
I'm a college student too (well, just graduated) and I'd like to welcome you to this community. It's always nice to see someone my age who is passionate for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Thanks for the welcome! I'm looking forward to summer...
I definitely don't have time to go through everything you've posted and reply to what you have to say, but I'll just toss in my two cents: salvation is not dependent on anything we do, not good works, not the capacity to believe certain doctrines. Salvation is wholly and utterly dependent on the grace of God. Our faith in God is not something we do on our own but the result of God's saving grace; faith in Jesus is a gift that helps us be light for this world. But perhaps God's grace results in expressions of faith other than Christianity. I do affirm, as you do, that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life; however, I believe that Jesus Christ can be found in people who aren't Christians.
I must say that I see a disparity in your view. Salvation is indeed from God alone through Jesus Christ. Grace has been given to the whole world, known as common grace. That is why the world is still able, for the most part, to survive, because the vast majority of persons do not physically steal from others or take another's wife. Common grace is not the same as saving grace. If you're going the path of saying that for Christians Jesus is the Savior, for Muslims Allah is Savior, for Buddhists, Buddha and Nirvana is savior, then at what point do you stop? Who is unable to be saved? Do we include only monotheists as having grace of God apart from Christ sufficient for salvation? The Bible speaks clearly to this problem by saying that Jesus Christ alone is the way to the Father. "No one comes to the Father but by me." As C.S. Lewis said, either Jesus was a lunatic, a liar, or the Lord in saying this and other things. Do not dismiss the Bible's clear teachings, or otherwise your position will be given away quite quickly. If you're passionate about the gospel, let's search the Scriptures and probe the deep riches of the gospel! Let's not bring our experience to the fore and let it dictate what the Scripture must say, instead of the other way around.
What I do know, however, is that a life touched by grace can't stay content when the world is broken, wars are tearing us apart, and our brothers and sisters- of whatever faith- are dying of hunger, disease, and genocide.
I agree wholeheartedly with you. Christians are to be leading in compassion (and by this definition a Christian is one who has been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ, in professing faith in Him, like the thief dying upon the cross) and ought to be helpers to those oppressed by society, to the widows and orphans who cannot defend themselves. Christians must oppose all those things which are in opposition to the yet-future Kingdom of Christ. Compassion and love must be on the front of our radars.
I believe the missionaries who partner with other faiths are responding to this grace, whether they are trying to convert non-Christians or not. This is certainly evangelism, although it may be different than what you're used to. I believe evangelism shouldn't be seen as something with the goal of winning souls to Christ in mind: evangelism should be the authentic, honest, and joyful expression of a life built on the grace of God.
If Christ alone is Savior, would it not be cruelty to withhold the gospel which leads to a knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ and salvation? Like I said in my post above, the biblical gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ cannot be communicated inductively through actions alone, but must be accompanied by the words of truth. "Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ (Rom. 10:17). Certainly we should do good to all around us, to those who do not share our faith in Jesus Christ, even laying down our lives for others and for the gospel's sake. Yet we ought not be deceived into making faith in Christ optional for salvation. To do so is to adopt another gospel, which receives heavy condemnation from Paul, and especially from God.
So yes, evangelism is important, but only if it comes naturally out of our hearts. It stops being something we do, but something God works through us. If we are truly honest, and truly authentic in our response to how God's grace has touched us, I believe God's grace will touch others as well. So perhaps it's possible that God will use us to introduce others to Jesus Christ even if we never make a conscious effort to convert them.
If all do not need to be converted, then why would you try to convert any at all? Evangelism indeed ought to be something that we do, and it is simultaneously a thing that God works through us. We do not ultimately "get people saved," that is the work of God. But again, faith does not come apart from hearing, but through hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you do not believe this, you are not a true believer in Jesus Christ. We all ought to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith, the faith in Jesus to which the Bible so clearly speaks, and the faith in Christ which has redeemed us from the penalty of our sins. To receive redemption yourself and to say that others don't need it is to deny the gospel of the redemption of our Lord Jesus Christ. If I am in error, may God keep you from seeing it. If what I am saying is true, then a lot of ministries on this forum need re-evaluation and ought to be broken before God for preaching another gospel which cannot save.
I do hope that this discussion continues, and that we can probe the rich Scriptures to see more clearly the glorious gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. May God be pleased that more sinners would come to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ through these posts. |
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Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. |
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subear
Posts:770
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| 04/27/2007 12:01 PM |
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My daughter (25) has also applied to the Peace Corp. Does your daughter have a blog or on-line journal, where she writes about her daily experience?
For the last three winters, my daughter, Saneya, has gone to Cambodia with her university (CSULB) art department in conjunction with the University of Phnom Penh, to do mural projects with the children in orphanages. The art projects serve as "language bridges" and "art therapy" for children traumatized by the HIV epidemic (born with it or orphaned by parents who died of AIDS) and children rescued from the "sex industry." Imagery is the language of the soul and emotions. It's a good way for the children to express their feelings; and it's a language that can be shared across cultures. It's a way to communicate heart to heart.
~susannah
oh, and some of the orphanages are Buddhist and some are Christian. . . (to keep this on the topic of this thread). |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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Stekala
Posts:46
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| 04/27/2007 12:32 PM |
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If you're going the path of saying that for Christians Jesus is the Savior, for Muslims Allah is Savior, for Buddhists, Buddha and Nirvana is savior, then at what point do you stop?
Oh, first of all, I'm a college student too and I wanted to ask Ben, where in the world do you find the time to write so much??? I am truly amazed! :)
Secondly, in response to this quote, I'd like to conjecture that there is a bit of a cross-faith misunderstanding here. Saying that Muslims and Buddhists have different saviors in Allah and Buddha (Nirvana btw is in no way their "savior," it is a total peace reached at the point of enlightenment) is factually erroneous. Both Allah and Buddha - the Eternal Buddha - are nothing more or less than God by a different name. And I laugh at the irony that God (in whatever language it might be) could possibly be considered an inferior savior to anyone.
However, I fear it may be fruitless for me to lay out my points once again. I think you are absolutely right, Ben, in warning us to not leave the Scripture you cited unrecognized. There is indeed much in the Bible that states that proclamation of the man Jesus as messiah is absolutely the only way to be forgiven, and I don't think that I or other Progressive Christians should just sort of pretend we don't see it. I see it clearly, but I just can't believe it. Forgive me, but it is contrary to the very foundation of my heart and soul. And so, I say openly that perhaps yes, there are parts of the Bible that I do not accept. In fact, there are many ideas from the Bible that I don't accept, such as Chapter 2 of Timothy (if I am remembering correctly) that drew a line for women, reaffirming all womankind's culpability for original sin and stating that we are saved through bearing children. And there are many other such passages. Bible or not, I do not accept these principles and I am not afraid to say it. Nothing in Christ's Gospel leads to such conclusions, and in fact it leads me away from them.
But I would like to end with a note of reconciliation. Firstly, I DO believe that Christ is the way, the truth, and the light of the world. But I do not know what this means. When I think of what Christ truly is - forgivness, faith in God, love, compassion, humility, peace, justice, and light - I fully affirm that this is the ONLY way, but I don't know (because I don't know God's mind and I did not hear Jesus preach) how the man Jesus works exactly into God's total plan. Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, I will remind everyone here that throughout this debate, we obviously all recognize Jesus' power to heal and transform. There is no need to sell Jesus here - I think we have all chosen him as our Savior and have faith in him. I know I am far from living up to the standards in actions or private faith, but I am trying. I really am trying to work in Christ, as I believe we all are.
Blessings and Peace, Kathy |
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"The shackles are undone/The bullets quit the gun/The heat that's in the sun..will keep us when there's none
The rule has been disproved/ The stone it has been moved/ The grave is now a groove/ All debts are removed" - "Window in the Skies" - U2 (third world debt relief - visit www.jubileeusa.org) |
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Stekala
Posts:46
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| 04/27/2007 12:37 PM |
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| Oh so sorry, but I forgot to mention a thought I had yesterday. Have any of you considered that though a person may not have faith in this mortal life, we don't know what God does after we are called back? Perhaps we are all brought to Christ when we die. And in that case, I think we would be better served to simply and passionately love all our neighbors to try to give them a glimpse of what they who they will be brought to one day. Just a thought - we cannot know how the Grace works, and it's really not our place to decide. |
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"The shackles are undone/The bullets quit the gun/The heat that's in the sun..will keep us when there's none
The rule has been disproved/ The stone it has been moved/ The grave is now a groove/ All debts are removed" - "Window in the Skies" - U2 (third world debt relief - visit www.jubileeusa.org) |
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bstritesky
Posts:41
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| 04/27/2007 12:49 PM |
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Dear Kathy,
Thank you for your forthrightness and honesty in your above post. Please re-consider your position, as it is doing much more than rejecting Paul's words, but God's Word. If we can't believe what Paul says in some places, how can believing him in others be justified? In that same vein, if we cannot believe the gospels fully, how can we even believe in parts?
Regarding your post about post-mortem "salvation," the Bible clearly excludes this possibility:
Hebrews 9:27-28 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, (28) so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
The world wants so badly for there to be no accountability for what they've done in this life. The Bible says quite the opposite, and warns us all to be found in Christ (and to plead with others to be found in Christ as well):
Psa 10:13-18 Why does the wicked renounce God and say in his heart, "You will not call to account"? (14) But you do see, for you note mischief and vexation, that you may take it into your hands; to you the helpless commits himself; you have been the helper of the fatherless. (15) Break the arm of the wicked and evildoer; call his wickedness to account till you find none. (16) The LORD is king forever and ever; the nations perish from his land. (17) O LORD, you hear the desire of the afflicted; you will strengthen their heart; you will incline your ear (18) to do justice to the fatherless and the oppressed, so that man who is of the earth may strike terror no more.
Romans 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
Jude 1:1-7 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James, To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ: (2) May mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you. (3) Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. (4) For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. (5) Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. (6) And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day-- (7) just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Do you see yourself in this Jude passage? There are many who can profess to be believers in Christ, but they deny Him when they say that He is not to be Lord of all, that all do not need to be saved through believing in Him. Salvation comes through hearing (or reading) the gospel, and having faith in Jesus Christ alone for forgiveness of sins. Apart from this, there is no salvation from the coming judgment.
The glory of God has been shown brightest in the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ for sinners who trust in Him alone for salvation. Read Isaiah 40-48 to see how God will not give his glory to another, for He alone is God. He alone gave His only Son to the world so that the world might be saved through Him. Muslims deny that Jesus was the Son of God, so how can you claim that they indeed worship the same God as we do? Can cannot be both trinity and not trinity. The New Testament has shone light on the trinity; dare we worship Him in any other way? Indeed this is an idea far beyond our ability to comprehend, but that is why God is God and we are not. He is the one who is the author of truth, not us. If the Scriptures say it, we better listen, or we reject this God ourself and attempt to have a righteousness of our own that cannot save us from His judgment upon sin.
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Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. |
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bstritesky
Posts:41
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| 04/27/2007 1:20 PM |
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Romans 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Calling upon the name of Jesus! By implication, in the verses following, people need to hear Jesus' name and what He has done and why He is worthy of your faith and trust. It is because he has brought us to God. We need to get back to what the gospel is. I find it most eloquently stated by John Piper in an article here:
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1995/1546_Quest_for_Joy/
The gospel is about finding real joy on earth, and eternal joy in heaven, in Jesus Christ. Jesus brings us to God so that we might worship Him and glorify Him forever. |
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Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. |
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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 04/27/2007 1:49 PM |
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Posted By bstritesky on 04/27/2007 12:49 PM
Dear Kathy,
Thank you for your forthrightness and honesty in your above post. Please re-consider your position, as it is doing much more than rejecting Paul's words, but God's Word. If we can't believe what Paul says in some places, how can believing him in others be justified? In that same vein, if we cannot believe the gospels fully, how can we even believe in parts?
Ben, which of Paul's words should she accept? 1 Timothy 2:14, where Paul states that ONLY the woman, Eve was deceived, but the man, Adam, was not deceived at all, or Romans 5:12, where Paul says that Adam sinned, and it was through Adam's sin that sin came into the world? BTW, read the passage. This is one of those where Paul or whoever wrote that this is what HE says, not God.
Susannah, glad to hear about your daughter. Mine does not have a daily blog. The "postas" in Kenya have internet access, (when Kenya has paid the bill), but on its best days this is a very slow dialup connection, with others waiting. The PC worker who is closest to her has a laptop with a wireless access card, so when she sees him she can check and send email. When she gets to one of the large cities she can go to an internet cafe and rent time on a computer there. Then she uploads pictures, sends email, and updates her myspace page. She does also send letters, and since AIDS/HIV education is not something that occupies her every moment, without TV etc. she does a lot of reading and writing of letters. What is frustrating for her is the cultural attitude that women are to provide the men with what they need, including sex. Teaching girls that they have the right to say no, and also teaching boys that that girls have the right to say no, is a big part of what she does. Along with teaching the girls that if they are raped they need to come to the clinic immediately. There is a myth that if a man with HIV/AIDS has sex with a virgin, they will be cured. If a woman gets treatment immediately, medication can be given that has been very successful in preventing HIV/AIDS. But like girls everywhere, many don't say anything until it becomes obvious they are pregnant. Of course, according to whoever wrote 1 Timothy 2, its their own fault for being descendants of Eve. If they don't die of AIDS, the baby will save them.
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bstritesky
Posts:41
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| 04/27/2007 2:44 PM |
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Pastorbogy, your treatment of those texts is unfair at best. Eve indeed was deceived by the serpent as Genesis 3 makes quite clear. The Bible says that both sinned, and it is very interesting that Adam is the one first addressed by God after the Fall, not Eve. That seems to imply that Adam deserves the blame for what Eve initiated and Adam joined. He was not exercising good leadership, and was accountable to God for what happened in his "household." This is why Romans 5 fits perfectly, because it indeed was sin for Adam to look the other way and even participate in Eve's sin. Yet Eve, too, was at fault. The blame is not ultimately on Eve, instead it is ultimately on Adam, from whom we have inherited a sin nature and sinful disposition and life-long sin debt which must be paid for and washed clean by Jesus. Husband leadership works in the same way today for husbands and wives.
What follows will reveal a lot about our view and the Bible: what will we do when the Bible and our culture or our own views are in opposition?
Ephesians 5:22-27 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. (23) For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. (24) Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. (25) Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, (26) that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, (27) so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
Paul shows that the structure of the family, the husband and wife relationship, is given directly by God, shown clearly in the relationship between Christ and the church. The husband and wife are of equal worth and value before God, but God has given different roles to the husband and wife. The husband is to be a servant-leader who loves his wife and cares for her, even to give his life for her, because Christ has done so for His church. The wife is to submit (hear the gasps!) to the husband's loving leadership because it is the desire of her heart to please Christ by following her husband's leading (to which the husband will have to give an account before God). Just as the church submits to Christ's lordship, so the wife to her husband's leadership. They are not commanded to follow their husbands into sin, and are not to do anything against their conscience, nor are they to lose their individual personhood, but instead seek to become one with the husband so that their joy may be full and mutual, and Christ glorified. This will likely fall on deaf ears to those who are not open to what the Bible really has to say. Like I said, this is a test of our view of Scripture. Eternity hinges on Scripture, so I trust in God's wisdom and not man's.
Also, regarding your comment on the "I, not the Lord," it is important to note the language carefully. First, it is Jesus, not God the Father, mentioned in these verses (such as 1 Cor. 7:12). When Paul is saying that it is not the Lord's but his instruction, he is not saying that his teachings are in opposition to Jesus' teachings. Instead, when Paul says "Not I, but the Lord," he is referencing that Jesus made this teaching clear in his earthly ministry. When Paul says "I, not the Lord," he is addressing those things which Jesus did not necessarily address by Jesus in his earthly ministry, but require his apostolic authority to teach in Jesus' stead according to the will of Jesus. I would be careful to dismiss Paul:
1Co 14:37-38 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. (38) If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
Paul had unique authority as an apostle that was preserved over thousands of years. If you want to get into textual criticism issues, we can, but the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the Scriptures in our hands today as being 99% or greater what was in the original manuscripts penned by the authors themselves.
Again, let me address you all with Jesus' words to his disciples:
"O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?"
Let us not be foolish, but seeking to come to a deeper knowledge of the truth by devoting ourselves to the Scriptures like the Bereans, who searched them night and day and found that the gospel message they heard was as the apostles had spoken.
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Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. |
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Pastorbogy
Posts:121
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| 04/27/2007 4:23 PM |
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Posted By bstritesky on 04/27/2007 2:44 PM
Pastorbogy, your treatment of those texts is unfair at best. Eve indeed was deceived by the serpent as Genesis 3 makes quite clear. The Bible says that both sinned, and it is very interesting that Adam is the one first addressed by God after the Fall, not Eve. That seems to imply that Adam deserves the blame for what Eve initiated and Adam joined. He was not exercising good leadership, and was accountable to God for what happened in his "household." This is why Romans 5 fits perfectly, because it indeed was sin for Adam to look the other way and even participate in Eve's sin. Yet Eve, too, was at fault. The blame is not ultimately on Eve, instead it is ultimately on Adam, from whom we have inherited a sin nature and sinful disposition and life-long sin debt which must be paid for and washed clean by Jesus.
I think your treatment of Kathy is unfair at best. And I believe you are skirting the point. At this point, my argument is not with Genesis 3, or Romans 5, which "fits perfectly." Read 1 Timothy 2. It doesn't say that Eve sinned too, it says that Adam was not deceived, ONLY Eve was deceived. Address the passage in question, not the ones that are in more in harmony with each other. Read the passage and tell me that it doesn't state that Eve ALONE sinned.
I wrote addressing other items in your post, but I deleted them. You have already tried to redirect the argument once. Please anser this first.
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