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bstritesky
Posts:41
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| 04/21/2007 5:14 PM |
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Pastor, if I indeed have taken them out of context, please inform me. It is not always the case that short Scripture passages are taken out of context, but it does happen. Again, if I have done so in citing these passages, besides what you have already responded to, please inform me and I will be motivated to pursue the true biblical context and answer. Until I can be persuaded that the context proves otherwise, I am confident in the testimony of Scripture to exclusive salvation through Jesus alone.
Regarding your last paragraph, I am going to quote a passage from John 10 to give you the context fully:
Joh 10:1-42 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. (2) But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. (3) To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. (4) When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. (5) A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." (6) This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them. (7) So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. (8) All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. (9) I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. (10) The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. (11) I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. (12) He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. (13) He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. (14) I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, (15) just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. (16) And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. (17) For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. (18) No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father." (19) There was again a division among the Jews because of these words. (20) Many of them said, "He has a demon, and is insane; why listen to him?" (21) Others said, "These are not the words of one who is oppressed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?" (22) At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, (23) and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. (24) So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." (25) Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, (26) but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. (28) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. (29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. (30) I and the Father are one." (31) The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. (32) Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?" (33) The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God." (34) Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? (35) If he called them gods to whom the word of God came--and Scripture cannot be broken-- (36) do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? (37) If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; (38) but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." (39) Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands. (40) He went away again across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing at first, and there he remained. (41) And many came to him. And they said, "John did no sign, but everything that John said about this man was true." (42) And many believed in him there.
Throughout this passage, it is clear that Jesus and the Father (God) are one (v. 30). Jesus is God. The things Jesus did was to bear witness both to His Father and to Jesus himself (v. 25). Jesus alone will give eternal life to his sheep (v. 28). His sheep are those who hear his voice and follow him (v. 3). There is a need for evangelism, so that those who are not of the fold now may be soon found to be part of the flock--which necessitates specific following of Jesus, who faith-fully follow Jesus(v. 16).
There is a huge difference between missionary journeys and your pastorate. Paul's motive for missions was to preach the gospel because people could not be saved apart from hearing it. According to what you have said, it is really no big deal if others do not hear the words of the gospel similar to what Paul said. This is frankly a bogus claim and it stands against everything the gospel is, as the only good news for sinners, not just another optional way. Do you see the implications of claiming that there are other ways to God than through Christ? Ought the UCC to oppose evangelical Christians who are going to Iran and Afghanistan and Timbuktu and Niger and Chad to preach the gospel that Scripture teaches, which is through faith in Christ alone? It would seem so because they are doing much more harm than good in claiming that Christ is the only way, especially in upsetting the perfectly good religious practices of others.
We seem to be at an impasse until you can show how the larger contexts of the passages I have cited refute Christ's claims to being the only mediator between God and men. If I am wrong, then I have a lot of texts to deal with and would have to change career paths quite radically. If you are wrong, however, there would be serious ramifications, especially considering what James 3:1 has to say about church leaders:
Jas 3:1 "Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness."
Consider again the testimony of Scripture I have set forth in the last few posts. I want to continue this discussion humbly, in a self-effacing way, but also in a way that keeps with James 3:1. Because if you are misguiding others to a false sense of security and salvation apart from Christ, then there will be a lot to deal with face to face with God. I face this stricter judgment, too. We ought to take this task seriously and prayerfully. |
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Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. |
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Linda
Posts:93
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| 04/21/2007 5:47 PM |
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What I have been trying to communicate is that Jesus, in my reading of the scripture, does not put the total emphasis on himself, but points the way to "God".
Well said, Pastorbogy! I believe that Jesus' mission was not for us to worship him, but to show us the way to God. |
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bstritesky
Posts:41
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| 04/22/2007 9:54 AM |
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Let me post another helpful article which shows the purpose and mission of Paul's ministry: making Jesus Christ known.
The Mighty and Merciful Message of Romans 1-8
Listen
By John Piper September 22, 2002
Romans 1-8
Paul writes the letter to the Roman church to mobilize their support for his mission to Spain. In Romans 15:24 he writes, "I hope to see you in passing as I go to Spain, and to be helped on my journey there by you." He has never been to Rome and has never met most of these Christians. So he lays out his gospel for them to see in these 16 chapters.
Oh that all our missionaries would know the book of Romans and preach the book of Romans. And Oh that those of us who send would know the book of Romans and live the book of Romans so that we would send missionaries the way Paul wanted to be sent and supported from Rome to Spain. The mighty and merciful message of this book will make rich Americans strip down to a more wartime lifestyle and pour their resources into the cause of the gospel. And the mighty and merciful message of this book, in the mouths of suffering missionaries, will break the powers of darkness and plant the Church of Christ in the hardest places.
The Multi-Cultural, Global Aspect of This Letter
It’s not surprising then as you start to read this letter, there is a multi-cultural, global point to it. In Romans 1:5 Paul tells us the goal of his apostleship: "We have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations." That’s why he preaches. That’s why he is going to Spain. That’s why he writes this letter: to bring about faith in Jesus Christ and the obedience that comes from it – "among all nations!" Romans is about the nations – the people groups who don’t yet believe on Christ. Who are not justified and not yet sanctified and therefore will not be glorified if they are not reached with the gospel.
Then in verse 14 he tells us his apostolic obligation again: "I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish." And lest we think he has left out the Jews, he says in verse 16, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Jews, Greeks, Barbarians, wise, foolish! In other words, this mighty and merciful message of the book of Romans breaks through national distinctions and cultural distinctions and educational distinctions.
This is utterly crucial to see in our pluralistic time – a time very much like the first century when the church of Christ spread so rapidly. Christianity is not a tribal religion, but calls for faith and allegiance from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Jesus is not one among many gods. He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and there is no other name under heaven by which all men must be saved. The mighty, merciful message of Romans is not just one way of salvation among many. It is the way of salvation, because Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God and Savior.
This claim has always been disputed. And it is especially disputed today in America, even among professing Christians, and, of course, among Muslims and Jews. In Friday’s Star Tribune there was another article rejecting the necessity of faith in Christ. A joint commission of Catholic bishops and American rabbis released a document called "Reflection on Covenant and Mission." The main thrust, the author said, is this: "Efforts to convert Jews are ‘no longer theologically acceptable’ . . . because the Jewish people already ‘abide in covenant with God" (Friday, Sept. 20, 2002, p. A23). In other words, there is one way of salvation for Jews who reject Christ, and there is another way of salvation for Christians who receive Christ.
This is a false and heartbreaking statement from Christian bishops in view of what Jesus said, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him" (John 3:36). Therefore, concerning the Gentiles who accept him and the Jews who reject him, Jesus said, "Many [the Gentiles] will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom [the Jewish people who reject him] will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:11-12).
So it is utterly crucial that we see the universal claims of the mighty and merciful message of Romans. We are not dealing here with a human opinion, or a human philosophy, or a self-improvement program, or a tribal religion, or something parochial and limited. We are dealing here with the true news that the one and only God has acted uniquely in history to save people by sending his one and only Son to die for sinners and rise again. To reject this news is to perish.
The Thesis of the Letter: Romans 1:16-17
So Paul states his point in Romans 1:16-17 and then explains and applies it in the rest of the letter. "I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, ‘The righteous shall live by faith.’" First, Paul says that his message – his gospel – is mighty and merciful to save: it is the power of God unto salvation. And this salvation is through faith. The power of the gospel to save penetrates to our souls with faith in Jesus Christ.
Then in verse 17 he explains why the gospel has this power: "For in it the righteousness of God is revealed." The gospel has the power to save those who trust Christ because it reveals the righteousness of God. What does that mean?
Romans 1:18 – 3:20: Why All of Us Need to Be Saved
Before he explains what it means, Paul spends Romans 1:18 – 3:19 to show why all of us need to be saved. You see his summary in Romans 3:9, "We have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin." And verse 19: "Every mouth [is] stopped, and the whole world [is] held accountable to God." So we are all sinners. We are all under God’s wrath (1:18). We have no righteousness that could commend us to him, and 3:20 makes plain that we can never save or justify ourselves: "By works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight." We are sinners. We are under God’s just and holy wrath. And we cannot save or justify ourselves by works.
Romans 3:21-31: Revelation of the Righteousness of God by Faith in Jesus and Its Implications
Now Paul returns to his main point of Romans 1:16-17 and explains what it means that the gospel is the power of God to save believers because it reveals the righteousness of God by faith. He says in verse 21-22, "But now the righteousness of God has been manifested [here he’s picking up the revealing of God’s righteousness in verse 17] apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it – 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe."
So what is the revealing of the righteousness of God that gives the gospel its power and saves believers? It’s the manifesting of "God’s righteousness that comes through faith in Jesus." It’s God’s righteousness revealed as a gift to us through faith. It’s what we call justification. So Paul says in verse 24 that sinners who trust Christ "are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." The revelation of God’s righteousness that makes the gospel the power of God unto salvation is the demonstration and the gift of God’s righteousness to sinners who trust in Christ.
Romans 3:25 explains how God can justify sinners without being unjust: "God put [Christ] forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins." In other words, God ordained for his Son to die in our place so that the Father’s wrath and curse would be on him and not on those who believe. In this way he shows his hatred for sin and his just dealing with it. So now, as verse 26 says, he can be "just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
So the death of Christ is the foundation of our justification. If we believe in Jesus, God counts us righteous for Jesus’ sake. We are seen and treated as just. That is justification. And in verse 28 he makes clear that this right standing with God is not by works but by faith, "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law."
And right here don’t miss the global, missionary, multi-cultural implication of this. Paul himself draws it out in verses 29-30, "Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles [the nations] also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one. He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith." Justification by faith in Christ is the mighty and merciful global message we have for all the nations and all the people groups and all the people we will ever meet. There is one Savior, one cross, one resurrection and one way to be right with the one God: having his righteousness imputed to us by faith in Christ, not by works.
Romans 4: Abraham’s Justification by Faith apart from Works
In chapter 4 Paul makes the case for justification by faith apart from works by using Abraham as an example: "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness" (verse 3). One of the most precious verses in the book is built off Abraham’s example (verse 5): "And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness." Not work but faith justifies. And not the godly but the ungodly are justified. This is good news indeed – this is the mighty and merciful message of Romans.
Romans 5: Hope and Security in the Face of Suffering and Death
In chapter 5 Paul sums up with verse 1, "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Then he opens the reality of suffering and death for the justified – and anticipates the huge emphasis on suffering in chapter 8. Verse 3 tells us why we can rejoice in tribulation – it leads to patience and approvedness and hope.
Then against the backdrop of this tribulation he argues exactly the same way he does in chapter 8 – from the greater to the lesser – if God can do a hard thing, he can do an easy thing. Recall in Romans 8:32 he says, "He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all [the hard thing], how shall he not with him freely give us all things [the easy thing]?" That’s exactly the way Paul argues here in Romans 5:9, "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood [that’s the hard thing], much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God [that’s the easy thing]." Same kind of argument in verse 10: "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son [that’s the hard thing], much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life [that’s the easy thing]."
The point is our hope and security in the face of suffering and death, just like it is in Romans 8. Normal Christianity is tribulation. "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). Don’t ever forget that the mighty and merciful message of Romans is put forth in the context of expected suffering.
Death is a massive reality in all cultures. If you have a gospel you must have some explanation of death and some hope in the face of death. That is what Paul takes up in Romans 5:12-21, and he does it by comparing Adam, whose disobedience brought sin and death, with Christ, whose obedience brought righteousness and life. Verse 19 states the contrast most clearly: "For as by the one man’s [Adam’s] disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s [Christ’s] obedience the many will be made righteous." Adam’s sin and condemnation were imputed to us because we are united to him by birth; so Christ’s obedience and exoneration were imputed to us because we are united to him by faith.
Then Paul sums up the triumph of grace through Christ in verse 21: ". . . So that as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 6: Union with Christ Is Death to Sin and Deliverance from Slavery
Which led to a problem that had to be solved: If we are really justified by faith alone and where sin abounds grace abounds all the more, then why not sin that grace may abound? And Paul answers this in chapter 6 with the teaching that faith unites us to Christ in a real way so that we actually experience with him a death to sin and a deliverance from its slavery (6:6, 17-18). All justified people are being sanctified.
Romans 7: Dead to the Law that We May Belong to Another
Then in chapter 7 Paul argues that it is not an orientation on law-keeping that sanctifies us – or makes us like Jesus. No, "you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. . . We are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit" (7:4, 6).
The Christian life is lived in the free gift and earnest pursuit of a relation to Jesus Christ "That you might belong to another!" (7:4). He is the might and the mercy and the model and the mandate of the Christian life.
Romans 8: Nothing Can Separate Us from the Love of Christ
This brought us then in these recent weeks to Romans 8 – the great 8. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ (verse 35)? Do you see the connection between that and Romans 7:4? Dead to the law so that we might belong to another – to him who was raised from the dead, Jesus Christ. That is the key to living and the key to dying. Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ. Answer: Nothing. Who shall separate us from the love of God in Christ? Answer: Nothing.
"So whether we live or whether we die we are the Lord’s, for to this end Christ died and rose again, that he might be Lord both of the living and the dead" (Romans 14:8-9). Live under his lordship, die under his lordship. And always sing to the invincible love of God in Christ.
© Desiring God
Permissions: You are permitted and encouraged to reproduce and distribute this material in any format provided that you do not alter the wording in any way, you do not charge a fee beyond the cost of reproduction, and you do not make more than 1,000 physical copies. For web posting, a link to this document on our website is preferred. Any exceptions to the above must be explicitly approved by Desiring God.
Please include the following statement on any distributed copy: By John Piper. © Desiring God. Website: www.desiringGod.org. Email: mail@desiringGod.org. Toll Free: 1.888.346.4700.
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Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. |
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jimk
Posts:35
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| 04/23/2007 12:11 AM |
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I think that there are some unwarranted assumptions that you are making. One is that people who don’t take the whole of scripture literally or follow the rules or conclusions of your particular school of interpretation therefore give it no authority and are twisting it to say whatever is convenient to them.
There are many people who do not take as authoritative certain portions of scripture, who yet have acted courageously and against their own self-interest because they came to believe that God was calling them to act in that way.
Here is part of my own understanding of scripture:
Reading the Bible is like having a very old grandparent at who’s feet you love to sit and listen. She has had a lot of experience and has many wise and illuminating stories to tell. Many of them you have taken to heart, because they have come to ring so true in your own life. And because she has said so many good things, you are much more likely to take seriously the things she says that don’t make sense to you.
But you also recognize that sometimes she will say things that you can no longer accept as true. Are you going to stop loving and learning and respecting this wise grandparent, just because you don’t agree on a number of things? No. After all, she (the Bible) is not perfect. But God often speaks to you through her in a powerful way and you love and respect and learn from her all the same.
P.S would you please shorten your responses and keep them to a point or two? |
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bstritesky
Posts:41
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| 04/23/2007 7:28 AM |
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Dear JimK,
It's the desire of every human heart to be able to be God--that was the whole reason why Adam and Eve chose to eat of the tree which God told them not to eat of. They rebelled against God, thinking that they knew what was better for themselves than what God did. I'm so thankful that what God has said to man is not a complete mystery, but that we can really know God's will on so many areas of life. To consider God's Word as optional, picking and choosing what sounds best, sounds very convenient indeed. No wonder it is getting harder for your denomination to find that the Bible really condemns any behavior. All this stems from one's view of the Bible. Either it is in full the true Word of God to men, or not. Either we should take the Bible as God's Word or not. It cannot be both, and it cannot merely "contain" the Word of God mixed with many untruths. That would have been very cruel of God to do. Since it is the Word of God, I find it quite hard to support a position which treats it as merely an advice-giver. God surely does not communicate advice, but unchanging, objective truth, to his creatures. I see echoes of Genesis 3 in your approach to the Bible; consider deeply the ramifications of making one's subjective feelings and reactions to Scripture above that of what Scripture actually says.
So far, there has been no response to the myriad of verses I have posted. Now I can begin to see why. They seem to prove my point, but now it is easiest to dismiss them because it is contrary to how "I feel" God's Word should be. Am I wrong? |
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Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. |
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rebcamuse
Posts:155
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| 04/23/2007 9:45 AM |
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Posted By bstritesky on 04/23/2007 7:28 AM
So far, there has been no response to the myriad of verses I have posted. Now I can begin to see why. They seem to prove my point, but now it is easiest to dismiss them because it is contrary to how "I feel" God's Word should be. | | | |
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