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krazystuff
Posts:1
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| 04/25/2006 2:48 PM |
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| I recently saw the commercial on TV where people who are seen as "sinners" are rejected from a church and then it says "God doesn't reject people". My question is, what does the Bible have to say on that? Does your church believe in heaven and hell? God does reject people. He loves everyone, but if they do not believe in Him and accept His gift (Jesus dying on the cross to pay for their sins) then they are not allowed into heaven. I understand that everyone makes mistakes and we all sin, but we then have the choice to either repent and turn our lives around or continue down the same path of sin. God is very clear in the Bible on what is a sin and what is not. If we continue to repeat the same sin then how can we say that we have really repented? From that commercial I got the impression that your church was saying that you can do whatever you want and sin as much as you want and God doesn't care. He does care. He wants everyone to live a healthy life and serve Him not ourselves. He blesses those who serve Him and the Bible is very clear on what He does to those who do not. If anyone has an actual Bible verse that can counter this information please feel free to share it with me at krazystuff05@thetruth.com or if you would like to discuss what the Bible actually says. |
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JMcKenrick
Posts:13
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| 04/25/2006 6:42 PM |
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I am not even goin to try to change your opinion on this or say that you're a bad person, because you're not. I'm just going to give you my (and many others') views on this. First off the "God Is Still Speaking" thing that is used buy the UCC means that the bible isn't God's final word. God didn't jus "write" a book and sit around and watch people follow it. He "wrote" (more on that in a sec) it for a guide, it's not (in my opinion) a "rulebook", it's a portal for your heart to speak directly to God. OK about the wrote thing, God didn't "write" the bible, his followers did. Humans are flawed, so the bible is flawed in some way, shape, or form. Now don't even think for a minute that I'm saying that the bible isn't the holiest book in the world, because it is!!! I'm just saying that it isn't the direct "word" of God as many people say it is (once again my opinion as well as many others). But let's say that the bible was indeed the absolute word of God. Now I'm sure by sinners you mean homosexuals, people that have sex out of marriage, etc... Well, there is one particular verse in the bible that I think says we have to welcomr them and let them worship with us, it Romans: 13: 8-10 says "Pay all your debts, except the debt of love for others. You can never finish paying that! If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill ALL the requirements of God's law. For the comandments against adultery and murder and stealing and coveting and any other comandment are all summed up in this one commandment. 'Love your neighbor as yourself' Love does no wrong to anyone, so love satisfies all of God's requirements". OK, now I think by "rejecting" people from a church or community, your are denying them your love. That is against this commandment, that is worse than breaking the others. I'm not saying to go out and sin as long as you love your neighbor, I'm saying if you reject them (like churches do a lot) you are going against this commandment. It is between them and God on if they are sinning or not, we just need to welcome them with open arms, that's what Jesus did too. He helped even murderers etc... If they don't change their sinful behavior, that's their problem and we have no say in it, so why do we hold it against them?! Now, there is one thing that most christians believe to be sinful which I truly believe isn't. Now don't hold this against me, I truly believe this and I'm not trying to change your way of thinking, I'm just showing you what I think. Homosexuality, I believe that if it is in a loving, monagamous, and christ-centered relationship, it is in fact not sinful at all. Yes, I admit, I am gay myself (please don't quit reading, at least hear what I have to say!), but I believe that God truly loves me and I've gone down the road of denial and actually prayed for years for God to help me change, but all I ever found was hurt, confusion, and I actually got to the point of being physically sick and I was suicidal. Then, someone told me about a website called http://www.gaychristian.net/ and I learned some stuff there that I believe in my heart to be true and after this, my life turned around and my life has been blessed ever since. I am going to share with you a little piece of what I have learned. I learned that the few passages (clobber passages) used against gays are misinterpreted, and or mistranslated. Now this may sound like rubbish (did to me at first, but just listen) the bible itself contradicts Lev 18:22 In a certain verse in Galatians (I think that's the chapter, I'm no bible scholar) it says that we are no longer under the old (levitical) law. We are under a new law under Jesus. Besides many things in Leviticus is immoral and is no longer recignized today (eagles |
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baronsabato
Posts:77
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| 04/25/2006 8:02 PM |
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I don't believe that we at the UCC feel that sin is "okay". Sin is most definitely NOT okay, it separates us from our neighbor, and it separates us from God. It keeps us from loving each other the way Christ teaches us. That is the essence of sin.
What we do say is that we accept the sinful nature of all humanity- we are all sinners, regardless of how hard we try not to be. And even as Christians, we continue to sin. We sin when we ignore the homeless and the poor. We sin when we tell homosexuals that they are not welcome in the Kingdom of God. But by that beautiful grace of God, we are forgiven.
This doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to refrain from sin, or help the homeless, or embrace gays and lesbians. We should, and we must, for Christ inspires us to do so. But we should really question why we are doing the things we are doing. Does God want us to help the homeless simply because we don't want God to be angry at us? Does He want us to feed the hungry only because we don't want to go to Hell? If our intentions are based on this legalistic fear-of-God punishment/reward system and not simply because we believe it is the RIGHT thing to do, then does that really bring us closer to God? I would say no- we must believe in our hearts what is right rather than simply follow the law because we don't want to get punished later.
So does God reject people? I don't know. I know what the Bible supposedly says, and I know what many theologians smarter than myself have said as well. However, I can tell you that our commercials are saying that God does not reject ANYONE who SEEKS Him. If we ask, we shall receive, and there are millions of unchurched people asking for a place in God's kingdom, and too many Christians are saying "no" even when God says "yes". That is what we at the UCC want to do with our commercials, our congregations, and our Church- to tell these people, hungry for God as we see Him in Christ Jesus, "Yes! You are welcome!" because we should never keep people away from God. |
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"the whole irreducible point of the faith,
God thrown in human waste, submerged and shining.
We have grown used to beauty without horror.
We have grown used to useless beauty." |
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innervisions
Posts:29
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| 04/25/2006 10:19 PM |
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I think people need to realize that you're not going to understand all that the UCC believes in a 20 second commercial. The point is, if we can get people in the door, if we can make them feel comfortable to hear what we teach, then we can help them. There are churches where people are made to feel like turds before they hear a word of the sermon. How are they supposed to learn if people reject them as soon as they see them?
Of course God doesn't want us to sin, and we aren't saying sin is ok. What we are saying is that if you're seeking God, you're welcome here. And since everyone has sinned and come short of the glory of God, we can't judge you. All we can try to do is teach you according to what we believe. |
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baronsabato
Posts:77
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| 04/25/2006 10:27 PM |
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[QUOTE]innervisions wrote
I think people need to realize that you're not going to understand all that the UCC believes in a 20 second commercial.[/QUOTE]
Excellent point! Too many people seem to think that these commercials are all the UCC believes, and I find that to be a bit silly. |
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"the whole irreducible point of the faith,
God thrown in human waste, submerged and shining.
We have grown used to beauty without horror.
We have grown used to useless beauty." |
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JMcKenrick
Posts:13
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| 04/25/2006 11:54 PM |
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| I totally agree. But God does love gays, I truly believe gays are not sinful if they still seek God!!!!! I couldn't love God more, and Jesus is my saviour and my sexuality will never change that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Brian @ The Movies
Posts:2
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| 04/26/2006 12:29 PM |
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And I think that is part of the point, the UCC doesn't believe any one thing and that's what makes it great. The number one reason we don't reject people is because we crave their thoughts and beliefs; what seems to separate the UCC from many other denominations is it's a lay (person) lead church, so the theological ideas we support can come from the congregation, not necessarily from the pulpit.
In terms of the sin conversation, someone really needs to define what "sin" is. |
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innervisions
Posts:29
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| 04/26/2006 1:28 PM |
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[QUOTE]Brian @ The Movies wrote
In terms of the sin conversation, someone really needs to define what "sin" is. [/QUOTE]
Sin is disobedience to what you truly believe God wants you to do. Now, of course, people differ on which actions are sins. Some say homosexuality is a sin, but if you've really had a conversation with God and He has told you that you are in line with what He wants in your life, that's between you and Him. |
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JMcKenrick
Posts:13
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| 04/26/2006 2:21 PM |
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Exactly, and people need to stop hating us and let God handle it. I'm still a christian (no sex before commitment (marriage if it gets legalised) and everything else. I can't understand why people hate gays sooooo much!! Listen to this woman and you'll see how far some people go to hate gays and other potential sinners:
http://media.spikedhumor.com/24864/insane_woman_on_fox_news.wmv |
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Sheepdog
Posts:4
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| 04/27/2006 2:45 AM |
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| Who did Jesus reject? From what I read, no one. He did have some issues with a few people though. In my Bible they were the "religious" people who (for some reason) liked to reject others and hold themselves up as better or less sinful. The interesting thing is (as far as I can see) Jesus did not even turn these "righteous" people away. They were against him. The most religious of the time could not stand a man who walked with the people, loved them, healed them. On the cross he asked God to forgive everyone. Perhaps this tells us some truth. God loves everyone. God does not turn people away, but sometimes we decide to reject God, especially when we can't see God in everyone we meet. I don't believe that God rejects anyone. I think that we choose to turn away, or nail him to a cross, and still God forgives. |
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richrthr
Posts:102
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| 07/13/2007 6:45 AM |
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| The Good Samaritan story (Luke 10:25-37) is the best example I can think of why that commercial is a tremendous expression of God's Mercy. We are sinners, all of us. But God knows that. It is for God to judge us - and it for us to show mercy and compassion to our neighbor - "No Matter Who They Are, Or Where They Are on Life's Journey." |
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Richard Kiraly
Garden of Grace UCC
http://www.gogucc.com |
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goodstoryteller
Posts:58
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| 09/01/2007 9:34 PM |
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Here is an interesting and I think helpful discussion by 19 major theologians on the question Is Homosexuality a sin? What does the Bible say about it? www.dignitycanada.org/sin. .
Early on in this thread someone referenced Heaven and Hell. Later there was reference as to the Bible and the Word of God The two major issues that seperate fundamentalist, conservative and evangelical christians from the emerging and progressive churches are the response to these questions. Both perspectives are indeed Christian---they are different ways of Following Jesus. The more traditional one--followed in varying forms by the Evangelical, Conservative and Orthodox, ECOT as they call themselves in the UCC read the Bible much more literally and affirm the later church doctrines about the authority of scriptures.--This has a wide range. I can still see a Sunday School teacher of mine explaining inspiration of the scriptures as God literaly holding the hand of the writer and controlling the pen and flow of ink. Others are not that literal. but insist that it is God's word and the liturgy in many churches even where the peoples faith and the preaching no longer supports that understanding support it with various phrases--This is the word of God and you can depend on it, The Word of God etc. .
There are of course the creationists in this group who see the Genesis accounts as literal descriptions of historic events. The alternative view of the Bible is to understand it in historical context and more metaphorical. It is written not by God but by Man and contains inspired acounts of human's progressive understanding (revelation) of God. They are testimonies of faith. They are litarary works, some oral tradition stories carried down for generations before ever being committed to writing. The Genesis creation accounts are great story. They reveal truth not facts. They are faith stories not scientific texts. .
The other major question that seprates followers of Jesus is how they answer, Who he was? Even the Gospels vary on this issue. The Jesus presented by Mark is a far different Jesus than presented by the writer of John. Mark is the earliest Gospel in the Bible and is clearly a basis for the others. Espcialy Luke and Matthew follow but adding a great deal of "Christology" to Marks more historical account. They both add "birth narratives" quite different from each other and that have difficulty meshing with other historical accounts of the day--but accounts of virgin births and affirmations of "Son of God" were common in the cultures of the region. Ceasar too was a virgin birth and a Son of God atleast according to the stories of the day. They are skilfully executed literary devices tieng Jesus to the Messianic tradition. The emerging church or progressive or liberal church--including almost all theologians in mainline and major university seminaries see the historial Jesus somewhat differently. .
For the conservatives Belief in Jesus, accepting jesus is necessary to get to heaven which is the core issue. For the alternative view Jesus taught about The Kingdom of God here among us and calls us to follow him in building that Kingdom. Not a political one but a social relational one. .
The entire Bible is written with the assumption the earth is flat. --layered. waters above and below. Heaven up, hell down. Nothing prevents anyone from belieing that as a matter of faith--it's just a problem for them when trying to do science. .
Progressive Christians read the Bible more in the context and understanding of when it was written and how those people heard it--not how most of us heard it in Sunday school after 2000 years of layers of church doctrine have been placed on top of it. .
Pregressives do not see God as an angry God demanding sacrifice to appease his anger. But rather as a God who loves even the errant one--as pictured in the misnamed parable of the prodical son. IMO it is really the story of the loving Father. We are indeed Children of God for he made us such. We follow Christ for the purpose of building his kingdom not for a ticket out of hell. Images of a Sunday School Song about the Hevenaly Express--the leters on the engine are J-E-S-U-S, --can't remember all the words but is that picutre vivid. .
Well so much for a lay person trying to do theology--but that is where I am in my journey and a very different answer than I would have given a year or two ago. But one that better explains to me what I have been believing in my heart most of my adult life (72 years) and never found nurture and affirmation in the Conservative and Evangelical campfires. The UCC and Reading some Borg and Crosson and Spong have helped--and I see the connection from things my father said and others along the path but I just couldn't put it together until recently. .
Karl |
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Don NIederfrank
Posts:41
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| 09/03/2007 2:41 PM |
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Sin is disobedience to what you truly believe God wants you to do. Now, of course, people differ on which actions are sins. Some say homosexuality is a sin, but if you've really had a conversation with God and He has told you that you are in line with what He wants in your life, that's between you and Him.
Sin is disobedience to what =I= believe God wants me to do?!
Sorry, that's good post-Existential Individualism but it's a long way from a Judeo-Christian-Islamic understanding of what sin is.
All three of the Abrahamic faiths assert an understanding of God's will as an objective reality and that acting contrary to that will(and, ala Tillich resulting in separation from God in neighbor) is sin. Being true to one's self, true to one's belief, having this sort of integrity is absolutely in line with Camus, Sartre, et al., but it ain't Jesus. :-) |
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Dios habla todavia |
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Jimmy
Posts:2
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| 03/08/2008 6:06 PM |
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| Interesting posts. |
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progressive4christ
Posts:51
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| 03/15/2008 12:09 AM |
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| God LOVES His little Rainbows! My heart just aches for the mentle pain that GLBT peole endure all the time. |
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"Still, the Bible is like a mirror. You end up reading it not as a reflection of how it is but of how you are. If you're a bigoted, narrow person, you will find bigotry in the Bible." D. Tammet
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progressive4christ
Posts:51
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| 03/15/2008 12:13 AM |
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Posted By Sheepdog on 04/27/2006 2:45 AM
Who did Jesus reject? From what I read, no one. He did have some issues with a few people though. In my Bible they were the "religious" people who (for some reason) liked to reject others and hold themselves up as better or less sinful. The interesting thing is (as far as I can see) Jesus did not even turn these "righteous" people away. They were against him. The most religious of the time could not stand a man who walked with the people, loved them, healed them. On the cross he asked God to forgive everyone. Perhaps this tells us some truth. God loves everyone. God does not turn people away, but sometimes we decide to reject God, especially when we can't see God in everyone we meet. I don't believe that God rejects anyone. I think that we choose to turn away, or nail him to a cross, and still God forgives.
So TRUE! Well said.
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"Still, the Bible is like a mirror. You end up reading it not as a reflection of how it is but of how you are. If you're a bigoted, narrow person, you will find bigotry in the Bible." D. Tammet
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Joe Mainusch
Posts:6
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| 06/19/2008 10:26 AM |
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| "Go and sin no more" |
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