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TonyH
Posts:1
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| 04/20/2006 11:39 AM |
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These are some of my personal thoughts on religion…
Okay, I’m gonna ruffle a whole bunch of feathers here, I'll apologize in advance
Christians, by and large, are an arrogant lot. If you pick up any newspaper you’ll probably see at least some mention of the discovery of the Gospel of Judas. Many in the Christian community has already denounced this gospel as lies.
The Holy Bible as currently published was put together in Rome 382 AD. More than 3 and a half centuries after the death of Christ, and well over 3 centuries after the death of anyone who knew him. The four gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John were only a sampling of the Gospels written. These four texts were accepted by the dominant Christian rulers of the time as being the accepted versions of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
History, as we know, is written by the winners. The perspective of events by different people can vary greatly. This is fact. Case in point; in the north, the war spanning from 1861 – 1865 is referred to as the “Civil War.” If you drive down south of the Mason-Dixon Line, you’ll find that the same conflict is referred to as either “the war between the states” or “the war of northern aggression.”
Prior to the Synod of Rome in 382, early Christians held a pretty wide range of views. The current cannon that requires faith in Jesus as the savior was not the prevalent belief by the majority of Christians in the first few centuries following the death of Christ. Most held “Gnostic” beliefs. These beliefs hold that personal insights are the key to redemption rather than faith in the resurrection.
Several religious leaders have decried the Gospel of Judas as “a pack of lies.” They are claiming that just because it was written does not make it true. To dismiss the Gospel of Judas out of hand with no consideration is what makes some Christians arrogant.
Personally, I have a real problem with organized religion. Catholicism is the one that peeves me the most. Catholics hold that the only way to heaven is through the Catholic Church. To my mind, organized religion is nothing more than a means to control people. Catholics were the worst offenders in this (think of the Spanish Inquisition). The Roman Catholic Church held and still holds a lot of power over the faithful. The Pope is nothing more than a man, but is considered to be God’s right hand by some.
The texts that make up the bible were written by men. Those portions that made it into the bible were chosen by powerful men with an agenda. Only those texts that fit their points of view and served their purposes were included in the bible. Who is to say that the Gospel of Judas or any of the dozens of other disavowed Gospels are any less true than those of Mathew, Mark, John, and Luke?
I do not subscribe to any particular denomination. My church is wherever I am when I ht my knees to pray. Call me a heathen if you wish, but I hold that my relationship with God is personal, and involves no one else. No church can deny me entry into God’s kingdom simply because I do not follow their rules. I am a believer, and I consider myself to be a Christian with trditional conservative values. I do believe that Jesus died for my sins, but I do not believe that simply believing in this will win me passage through the pearly gates. What will? I do not know. No one can know God’s mind. All we can do is lives our lives as best we can, and hold true to the word of God and his son. The demands of men are irrelevant.
I've been searching all of my life for a church with whom I can identify. Could UCC be that church? |
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The Werewolf Prophet
Posts:2
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| 04/20/2006 2:43 PM |
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I can't address whether or not the UCC might be for you, as I'm just beginning to check them out myself.
I do believe that Jesus died for my sins, but I do not believe that simply believing in this will win me passage through the pearly gates. What will? I do not know.
To me, it's pretty simple, and Jesus made it quite clear in Matthew 22:36-40 (KJV) ...
Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Everything else is general wisdom, suggestions, stories and/or commentary.
P.S.
Note that "love" is a very, very active verb. |
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bmrathbun
Posts:68
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| 04/21/2006 8:55 AM |
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Many people say that they haven't found religion to be satisfying, but that they're very spiritual, that they love God, follow Jesus, and don't worship in a community. The Matthew passage speaks to that. We can't love God in a vacuum, with just ourselves in the bubble. We are involved with other people, like it or not. God made them, too, with just as much love and delight as we were made. If we try to have an honest, respectful relationship with God without having an honest, respectful relationship with God's people, we're fooling ourselves. Writer Anne Lamott earthily calls that "colo-rectal theology", because our head is in a place where it's warm and dark and narrow, and all about me.
Jesus taught us a still better way. We don't have to endorse everything every self-proclaimed Christian ever did or said, or follow every dogma every church ever produced. We should, however, begin from a position of respect and honesty about ourselves and others. God respects us, is honest with us, and delights in us. If we are to be people of God, we must do the same not only with God, but with all God's creation. That includes the people we don't approve of, don't like, wish would just shape up or shut up, make us uncomfortable by their presence in our lives. It's easy to love the nice ones, the ones who agree with us. Our "growing edge" may be in discovering the lovable parts of others.
We must always remember 2 things: first, God loves us and forgives our mistakes, welcoming us back even after we turn aside; and second, God isn't as persnickety and fastidious as we are. God loves even those people who have done truly appalling things in the past. God even loves the church, as appalling as it sometimes is.
The church, remember, is an institution. It became an institution in order to survive as a very small entity in a very large and hostile world. It became an institution over time, in response to circumstances, in response to crises and catastrophes. It is shaped by its leaders and by its followers, good and bad. As an institution, it finds that change is very difficult. Try this metaphor: The stationery is already printed, the walls are built, the electrical outlets are in a particular place. We work around what doesn't easily change. Can you imagine how difficult it must have been to wire the Vatican for the Internet age without destroying the beauty of the art and architecture of the building? Can you imagine the years of committee meetings that went into that project? I'm sure there were those who didn't want anything to do with it, who wanted to keep things the way they are.
Every church, whether we're talking about the little one on the corner that counts about 20 people on its membership list, or the largest denominations, struggles and tries and learns from its mistakes as well as its successes. And God loves them all, all the time. Warts and all. Just as God loves us, all the time, warts and all.
It's the struggles and the mistakes and the successes and the attempts to be faithful that make us who we are. Yes, we must sometimes back up, shift gears, apologize, try to repair what we've damaged, and make another attempt to get it right.
The UCC isn't any more perfect than any other church, but I believe we're on the right track. I believe we make a deliberate effort to be aware of the dangers of not making changes, as well as the dangers of making the wrong changes. We try things. We try to notice who we've been ignoring or excluding, and apologize and make an effort to get it right this time. That's why we say, often, "No matter who you are, or where you are on life's journey, you are welcome here." We learn as we go. Thank God. We're trying those two great commandments, and we'll work at it till we get it rght.
Pastor Barbara |
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innervisions
Posts:29
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| 04/21/2006 2:09 PM |
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Pastor Barbara,
I really enjoyed your words! |
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Sheepdog
Posts:4
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| 04/27/2006 3:15 AM |
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I think that the United Church of Christ COULD be your church and here's why. I is run from the bottom up. Our Officers don't tell us what to believe. At each level the people of the congregation have a say. It is a place where ideas are shared and where the Word of God is not limited to a few pre-approved texts. One of the reasons that I respect the UCC is that it is not a church that says "do this or get out." Often individuals and churches do not agree with everything that the denomination supports. The thing is that they are still welcome. More importantly they are still wanted.
A few years ago my church was deciding whether or not to call a gay minister to serve. It did not matter that he was a Harvard Grad and had an impressive past at other churches. The issue was that he was gay. There were many meetings held that were open to the entire congregation. Many people supported him and they tended to be the loudest voices. One woman took a chance. She got up in front of the whole church and shared that she did not want a gay leader. She had been taught her whole life that it was wrong. She did not mind if gay people attended church but she could not bring herself to affirm a gay leader. She mentioned that if he was voted in she might have to leave the church. Here is where the UCC aspect came in. After she sat down the facilitator of the meeting (who was in favor of calling the new pastor) turned and looked directly at her. He thanked her for being brave enough to be honest. He told her that he respected her, that she was loved, and that whatever the outcome was it would be a great loss if she left the church. Most importantly he meant it. It was a beautifully affirming moment of why I have chosen the UCC. We fail a lot, we don't always agree, but we try our best to live love like Jesus did.
On a larger scale this was illistrated last summer when the denomination decided to affirm gay marriages. Several churches disagreed with this and they were given a full page in the UCC's newspaper stating this.
This is why I say that it could be the place for you. Because this part is really a matter of where God is calling you. Just know that you are welcome for who God created you to be, not who the church tells you to be.
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Posts:0
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| 04/27/2006 3:59 PM |
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Wow -- I want to be a member of the church you're describing.
Humble
Imperfect
Genuine
Loving
Oh yeah -- I already am. I think we have something so precious in the UCC and we've got to keep telling others about it. |
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WWJD
Posts:40
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| 05/08/2006 11:18 PM |
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[QUOTE]TonyH wrote
These are some of my personal thoughts on religion…
Okay, I’m gonna ruffle a whole bunch of feathers here, I'll apologize in advance
I've been searching all of my life for a church with whom I can identify. Could UCC be that church?[/QUOTE]
Based on your knowledge of the bible you are in a good place. I needed a church where I didn't have to turn off my brain when I walked in the front door. Not an easy task. Not everyone will agree with what you believe and you may find that your beliefs change, but if you like to ask questions and to understand thing, in general, the UCC is a good place to be. |
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Stan Bennett
Posts:7
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| 12/21/2006 8:47 PM |
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A website you may find intersting is http://www.christianmystics.com
It is non denominational, but there is a video by a Roman Catholic monsignor (no less) who is asked if he thinks Hindus and Buddhists can go to heaven. His response is that they are likely to enter heven ahead of him! Not all Catholic and/or Protestant Christians claim exclusive rights to salvation.
What I hear you saying is that you seek the direct experience of God in your life (that Light which lights the heart of every person who enters into the world) and that you are not hung up on the human words which fail to describe or deliver that experience. Sounds mystical to me, and that's why I suggest a visit to the above website. And I think you'll find a good number of mystics wandering around UCC Churches and gatherings. "Not all who wander are lost!" And they are in other places too. What people say is important, and how they say it is important, but to take some time and just watch how what they say is lived is what's most important. |
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subear
Posts:789
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| 12/27/2006 6:19 PM |
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This has been an interesting thread, we're getting into substance. What comes to my mind is the word "dialog" as opposed to "discussion." Dialog is when people share their thoughts, ideas and beliefs, while listening to other's with open minds and hearts. Discussion, is discursive, percussive; it is more aggressive and argumentative. In a dialog we don't try to convince or change another's mind or point of view. We simply explore our own, within the context of the topic. This is what I like about this forum. We are each coming from different backgrounds, with different experiences.
When it comes to religious organization, or, as I like to say, spiritual communities verses personal spirituality, I have come to see that both are necessary. If we're coming from a place of spiritual practice (meditation, prayer, insight), we find that there comes a desire for community to share our spiritual depth with. I'm not talking about intellectual knowledge, I'm just talking about "spiritual presence," or "Being" (Divine Love). It is true that when two or more people come together with spiritual intent, (study, prayer, meditation, communion, fellowship), the presence of Spirit is felt, sensed, perceived.
I think we are each responsible for our own spiritual growth, and I also think that it is our responsibility as humans to participate in spiritual communities. Spirit expressing is very powerful.
As for "beliefs," that's all they are. Experience comes first. Love comes first. I have basic beliefs, but they are open to change, and I respect the beliefs of others. I may not always agree, but I respect.
Love and Blessings,
Subear |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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Starlight
Posts:75
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| 01/02/2007 3:06 PM |
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| Hi, Tony! I like your post, and I think I generally agree with what you wrote. I don't believe that any single religion has a monopoly on God and the truth, simply because God and the truth are too great to be confined into any single religion. :) That's why I'm always open to different views, and my personal beliefs change as I learn new things. As for the church, I'm not a member of any "real" UCC church, only this online community, but I found out that UCC seems really good to me. It accepts different people, with different beliefs, and doesn't discourage people from seeking their own path towards God... :) |
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subear
Posts:789
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| 01/02/2007 5:12 PM |
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Re: Stan Bennett:
I visited the Christian Mystics web site. It looks really good (for me). I will go there often. Thank you.
Namaste,
Susannah |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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rebcamuse
Posts:155
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| 01/06/2007 8:43 PM |
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Susannah,
May I also recommend Inner Christianity: A Guide to the Esoteric Tradition. I enjoyed this book very much and I think you might as well.
http://www.amazon.com/Inner-Christianity-Guide-Esoteric-Tradition/dp/B000F4LMTY/sr=8-1/qid=1168133984/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-2181798-9393411?ie=UTF8&s=books
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Rebecca M
Somerville, MA |
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goldenrule
Posts:10
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| 01/08/2007 3:14 PM |
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Posted By The Werewolf Prophet on 04/20/2006 2:43 PM
To me, it's pretty simple, and Jesus made it quite clear in Matthew 22:36-40 (KJV) ...
Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Everything else is general wisdom, suggestions, stories and/or commentary.
P.S.
Note that "love" is a very, very active verb.
I haven't had time to really poke around and get to know the place yet, but I can already tell I'm in good company when the first thread I drop into opens with a question about organized religion and is followed up with the above comment. Very thoughtful responses. As I get to know the community I hope to contribute more but for now just a quick comment regarding "love".
I have come over the years to understand the need to look at the original words underlying our translations. Wherever Jesus is quoted as talking about faith or relationship, the writer has him use the word "agape". (a word I like, being Canadian "eh"? (sorry, bad pun))
Agape conveys so much more than what we typically think of as "love". Its spiritual, its all encompassing, its total relationship. For me, this where references to "one flesh" take on real meaning.
Thanks for the opportunity to share.
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Dave |
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billp4
Posts:1
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| 02/21/2007 10:30 AM |
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I do believe that Jesus died for my sins, but I do not believe that simply believing in this will win me passage through the pearly gates. What will? I do not know.
I happen to believe that is all it takes. In my mind it has to be because if it depends on anything I have to DO I may as well forget it. |
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rebcamuse
Posts:155
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| 02/21/2007 10:36 AM |
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I agree with you Bill (sort of). But here's my deep, probing theological question then:
Why are we Christians? If we don't have to DO anything, then why worry about it at all? Why not live a life of folly since there won't be any consequences?
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Rebecca M
Somerville, MA |
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subear
Posts:789
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| 02/21/2007 10:42 AM |
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What comes to my mind about that is: "ask and you shall receive, knock and the door is opened. . ."
Just say "Yes"and You are there. Where? Here, right now. This is where "heaven" is ("at hand" ). Just say "Yes."
Blessings and Love,
Susannah
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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subear
Posts:789
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| 02/21/2007 10:55 AM |
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Rebecca:
Oh, there are always consequences. Every move that is made has a consequence. We don't have to wait for a judgment day or an afterlife. The consequence is built into the action. It doesn't always show up directly, [Picture water drops on a pond; the concentric rings of energy moving outward, as they interact with the concentric rings from other water drops it gets more confusing.] but they always show up.
But that doesn't mean there is not Grace and Love and forgiveness. I think, it is we who must forgive ourselves (as well as others) but forgiving ourselves takes the greatest work. When we touch on that, we also touch on compassion, and that is the seed of unconditional Agape Love. And this leads to a state of Grace. The truth is, we are inseparable from God, in which we live and move and have our being. God speaks through each one of us. . . and through this whole creation that we call Life.
(smile)
Blessings,
Susannah |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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