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Wain
Posts:4
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| 01/20/2008 3:03 PM |
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| Greetings from a newbie! I'm glad to find i.ucc.
My congregation is discussing placement of the American and UCC flags in our church. Years ago, they flanked the altar. In recent times, however, they have been moved to various temporary locations in the sanctuary and narthex.
I volunteered to research the etiquette regarding the placement of the American flag in churches, and the practices of other UCC congregations would be an important part of that research. I'd welcome any input that you can give me.
I thank you kindly for your help.
Wain |
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Jack
Posts:95
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| 01/20/2008 7:20 PM |
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Our congregation does not display flags in the sanctuary. Although this a part of our congregations Anabaptist tradition.
See:
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/commons/2002/01/commons.html
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Jack |
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subear
Posts:745
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| 01/21/2008 1:40 PM |
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I don't know about church etiquette, but I have noticed the American flag on the podium. My personal opinion is that national allegiance should not be a factor in religious/spiritual practice.
Peace, Love and Understanding,
Susannah |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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subear
Posts:745
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| 01/24/2008 11:40 PM |
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| just had a thought. . . . how about Tibetan Prayer Flags? |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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Linda
Posts:92
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| 01/25/2008 12:39 AM |
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What are Tibetan prayer flags?
Without knowing what they are, I suspect I'd probably be happier with them than the American flag in the sanctuary. Nothing wrong with the American flag, but I don't think it's appropriate or necessary in any church sanctuary. I don't equate patriotism with religious and/or spiritual symbolism. |
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subear
Posts:745
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| 01/25/2008 11:29 AM |
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Tibetan Prayer Flags:
http://www.prayerflags.com/download/article.pdf
http://www.hitherandyononline.com/Prayerflags/prayerflags.htm
and Prayer Flags in English: http://westwindcollection.com/ |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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Wain
Posts:4
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| 01/25/2008 3:11 PM |
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| Thanks for the suggestion, Subear. I'm familiar with Tibetan prayer flags. We use them at the Multifaith Center on the college campus where I work.
The question that's up for discussion right now in my congregation is what to do with the existing American flag and UCC flag, although it is the placement of the American flag that seems to be the real issue if I'm reading my fellow parishioners correctly. Some members feel moving the flag away from the altar is disrespectful; others feel that the it is not an object of worship and does not belong near the altar.
I'm putting aside my own feelings about the matter for the time being so that I can prepare an objective report of what other Christian denominations do and what other UCC congregations do. It's been an interesting trip through books and on line, and one thing that I've noted is that the issue of national flags doesn't seem to be the hot button issue in other countries as it is the the United States.
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tacenogeno
Posts:105
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| 01/25/2008 10:21 PM |
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Our flags are not in the Chancel...and nowhere near the altar. They used to flank the pulpit and lectern...but they are now on the congregational level, behind the piano.
I am a UCC Pastor, and, personally, do not care where the flags are placed...I consider it a "peripheral-issue". I believe that we, in the United Church of CHRIST, often pay exceedingly more attention to miniscule matters of public "taste" than we do to Jesus Christ...and cessation of war...and the alleviation of hunger...and an end to genocide...and an end to the death of the "holy innocents" of all ages, tongues, disabilities, and races...
And I would much-prefer the display of the crucifix, the angels, and the saints, rarely seen in our Christian, United Church of CHRIST churches, than the flags of other faiths...just my humble opinion... |
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I'M ONLY VISITING THIS PLANET! |
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subear
Posts:745
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| 01/28/2008 1:14 PM |
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Yes! Elmer,
Angel flags or banners floating in the breeze, what a beautiful idea. :-)
-Peace, Love and Understanding,
Susannah |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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dgmosser
Posts:1
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| 01/30/2008 6:52 PM |
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The UCC church I attend had the flags in the sanctuary years ago. When the sanctuary was rennovated they were moved, along with the Christian flags, outside the sanctuary. They are now located by each door going into the worship space. The thought behind this is as we enter into a sacred space, we are reminded of the freedoms we hold dear. When we worship in the sanctuary, we do so in a safe and sacred space free from any allegiances except towards God and Christ. As we exit the sanctuary, we are reminded we are exiting into a free society where we all try and live out those ideals we preach, sing, and teach about in worship.
There was an attempt to move the flags back into the sanctuary through petitions, and the matter was researched by the Worship committee. To paraphrase their findings: the American flag in any setting must be visible, plainly seen, and in a location where it is the dominant "symbol." They took this to mean that the flag, if it is properly to be displayed, would be a more important and dominant feature than the Cross (or any other religious symbols). Because of this, they reccommended to keep the flags where they were, outside of the sanctuary by the entrances.
One more thing. The flags placement were really important to a couple of our more honorable senior members. Regretably, their desire for dialogue was co-opted by other people to try and reassert the power of the "old guard" . The whole matter became a blantant attempt at a power grab by doing an end run around the church council through petitions. Thankfully, the interim minister was good at working with congregations in conflict, and it was voted down by the church members at the special meeting after worship.
I hope this helps.
Grace and Peace,
David |
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progressive4christ
Posts:51
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| 01/31/2008 1:28 AM |
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| I agree with Linda. Thank You!
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"Still, the Bible is like a mirror. You end up reading it not as a reflection of how it is but of how you are. If you're a bigoted, narrow person, you will find bigotry in the Bible." D. Tammet
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timlar
Posts:1
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| 02/01/2008 12:53 AM |
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| I think that the flags should be placed in the sanctuary where they belong. Not in any other part of the church. My church(ELCA)has them in the fellowship hall. I have a question that I hope someone could answer for me. I don't know much about the UCC and, have questions about what they believe can somebody please tell me what exactly they believe and how they fit into fellowship with ELCA |
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Tim Welther |
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Andy Lang
Posts:0
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| 02/01/2008 5:55 PM |
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| Tim, regarding your question about what the UCC believes: you'll find plenty of answers if you explore the "What's the UCC?" community--one of the options under the "Stretch Your Mind" tab. Also, you'll find information about UCC history and testimonies of faith at UCC.org at http://www.ucc.org/beliefs and http://www.ucc.org/about-us. |
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fulham
Posts:22
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| 02/06/2008 1:20 PM |
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I would have thought a national flag is a political statement not a religious or spiritual one.
I recently visited Turkey - and was made aware from prior reading, that to utter anything construed as anti-Turkish or anti- Attaturk, is punishable with a term in prison. Turkish flags were everywhere, festooning balconies, hanging in shops and flying from buildings, but never , never, never inside a mosque or church / nor for that matter, outside the building.
Clearly this issue has been solved in Turkey - put the flag anywhere but not in a place where it does not aid worship and indeed could be a distraction, and even worse, infer a limitation of the Godhead.
Anyway, I really think it is 99 on the list of His priorities and also , hopefully, ours. |
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john p campling |
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kwalker
Posts:7
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| 02/09/2008 10:21 AM |
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| I believe that all flags should be outside of the sanctuary, perhaps in the Fellowship hall. My home church has them in the sanctuary but at the far left and right front corners and I'm not sure that many people even know or notice that they are there.
Kurt |
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"Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it." - Mark Twain |
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Wain
Posts:4
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| 02/09/2008 12:47 PM |
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| My thanks to all of your for your insight. You have been a great help to me as I prepare my report for my consistory. |
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RGGrimes
Posts:2
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| 02/10/2008 2:38 PM |
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| I think sometimes we do, in the UCC, debate such insignificant issues and yet what is insignificant to one is very significant to others. We must be respectful of these ideas. Going back to protestant roots the front should be kept clear of many symbols. We should focus on the teachings of Jesus and not American flags, tibetan prayer flags, or any other symbols. We should think of what we are there to worship and why. |
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sjt8184
Posts:14
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| 02/15/2008 12:23 PM |
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| At my church we have 3 flags in front of the altar and to the left(facing the congregation). They are the UN flag, the Christian Flag and the US Flag. Not sure as to the reasoning behind the UN flag, but we do have several members who are part of a local UN association. |
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fulham
Posts:22
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| 02/16/2008 5:19 AM |
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Forgive me for my ignorance, but what does the Christian flag look like? I've never seen one, except the Blood and Fire flag of the Salvation Army.
Strangely enough, ( whilst I have expressed , elsewhere on this thread, my views on the principle of flags in churches) , I do see the rationale of the UN flag in your church ---in Christ there is no east or west............I would question though,the presence of the other flags. |
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john p campling |
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Wain
Posts:4
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| 02/16/2008 9:04 AM |
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| You're not alone in being unfamiliar with the Christian flag. As I prepared the report on flags for my consistory, I came across references to the Christian flag and did a little bit of investigating. It is a white flag with a dark blue field in the upper-left corner and a red cross within that field. It seems to be connected with the Sunday School movement.
I have seen the Christian flag displayed in only a few places, and those were very conservative Protestant churches. It's probable that the fact that I have seen it so rarely has more to do with where I visit than with the actual number of churches that display it.
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subear
Posts:745
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| 02/17/2008 2:01 PM |
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RGGrimes:
I agree with your sentiments. But this thread, on this forum, has not been a debate. It was started with a question about our various experiences and opinions about flags in church and on the podium, and if there is an official etiquette about that. . . And some of the answers have been "in fun."
Peace, Love and Understanding,
Susannah |
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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emerymat
Posts:3
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| 02/18/2008 10:52 PM |
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You may be interested that our full-communion partners, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), have a page on their website that discusses the flag display issue:
http://www.elca.org/worship/faq/worship_space/flags.html
Here's a key excerpt from that page:
"Christians balance their national loyalties with their loyalty to Jesus Christ and Christ’s church. The Christian church includes many individual nations and states. It calls Christians to transcend national divisions, and thus to observe their baptismal unity. As Saint Paul says: "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:27-28). The worship space of the congregation is not the best place to display national flags, for such display honors neither the integrity of the flag nor the sovereignty of the Lordship of Christ. In reality, national interests and the commitment of the Christian to Christ can come into conflict."
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David Holt
Posts:6
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| 02/25/2008 3:05 PM |
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As someone who was raised Jehovah's Witness before discovering the UCC I would have to say that I find the idea of flags in the church at all to be very troubling. Why doesn't your church fold them up very nicely and put them in a display somewhere? I don't think it is appropriate to have a flag in the sanctuary or even in the church building.
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Conquer the angry man by love.
Conquer the ill-natured man by goodness.
Conquer the miser with generosity.
Conquer the liar with truth. |
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jimsavage
Posts:2
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| 04/27/2008 9:53 PM |
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| They need to be there. And many Christians continue to walk from the UCC because of such an issue being made important. It harms nothing and there is much to be gained by placing the Christian Flag and American Flag on the altar. Sometimes we continue to shoot our feet on such issues when churches that are bring People to Christ by the numbers are not hestitant to display the flag. Yes the Cross is most important in a Christian church. If someone is advocating anyone other than Christ or against him, he does not belong in church but in constant witness from those who believe. When our founding denominations were much larger and really devoted to Christ, this was understood and now we have moved away from the key Christian issues. |
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OWHN
Posts:3
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| 05/01/2008 4:35 PM |
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When our founding denominations were much larger and really devoted to Christ, this was understood and now we have moved away from the key Christian issues.
Sounds like "the good old days" syndome to me. Wasn't it just great "in the good old days." Well, I don't think it was... and I also don't believe that flags, national or (so-called) Christian, belong in a sanctuary. It's called a sanctuary, that mean a place people can find freedom from the world outside. We don't need to be reminded what country we are citizens of, most of us already know. As for the (so-called) Christian flag, it has nothing to do with the church, it is a product of 1950's hyper anti-communism. Does anyone really believe that the presence of flags in the sanctuary (or as far as I'm concerned, anywhere in a church) convinces anyone that we are better Christians? Boy, I hope not. BTW, I happen to be retired from the US Navy but I also don't have to wear a flag pin to prove my patriotism. |
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"Our lives begin to end when we become silent about the things that matter."
Matrin Luther King Jr. |
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