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Subject: A Fundamentalist Neighbor Wanting to Learn Reality.

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Darron Steele
New User

Posts:6

10/17/2007 11:45 PM
Hello All. I am a full biblical inerrantist Christian who is now 31. After becoming a Christian at age 16 after two years of atheism, I attended an `Independent Fundamental Baptist' congregation for five years. I picked up my misconceptions of "liberals" but had them challenged in college by `seeing the real thing.' One of them was a UCC-ordained minister who was college chaplain at the time. It took me years to process what I had to learn from them. Since the day I became a Christian, I always wished more Christians would cooperate in mutual good will for the work of the Lord. In the last few years, my thoughts on Christian unity became more cohesive, and I began a study. That study was first finished in September 2006 at 82 pages. It has since grown to 144 pages. In March 2007 I began attending a Disciples of Christ congregation for a variety of reasons, one of which was a response to my study. I joined in official membership in July 2007. As a member of the Disciples of Christ, I know that my denomination has an ecumenical partnership with your denomination. It is also time for me to get better imformed on the REAL beliefs of the people in the UCC -- not impressions that I got years ago. Therefore, I have some questions: 1) Is Jesus Christ considered Lord by you and/or by a sizable portion of your congregation? Comments? 2) Is Jesus Christ considered Savior by you and/or by a sizable portion of your congregation? Comments? I have no desire to debate or browbeat. This is a learning excursion on my part.

Darron Steele
New User

Posts:6

10/17/2007 11:50 PM
Oh, and I do not mean in any specific way for "Lord" or "Savior." I forget that biblically conservative denominations often have their constricting specifics on these words. I am asking about the concepts in general. My study can be found at hp://www.geocities.com/steeledl/unity2.html -- replace the "" with "tt". A personal statement about me and my Christian growth in the areas of Christian unity can be found at h**p://www.geocities.com/steeledl/statement.pdf -- do same replacement. Note: I am NOT a typical fundamentalist.

keyless.chuck
51-100 posts

Posts:58

10/18/2007 9:48 AM
Hi Darron, Welcome to the i.UCC boards! You have an intriguing story, and I'm glad you shared with us. Two points to answer your questions: 1) As a whole, the UCC does consider Jesus Christ to be Lord and Savior. Please see this link to the Preamble to the UCC Constitution to see that Jesus is recognized as such in the church's official documents. 2) For me personally and for my congregation, I answer that yes, I/we do recognize Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. One of the most wonderful characteristics of the UCC is that theology is left open to the individual and his/her congregation to explore together. So, although I and most others I know can answer your questions in the affirmative, my understanding of these statements is not the same as others in my congregation or in the UCC as a whole. We live together as a local community and as an organized church body without having to pass a doctrinal test of understanding in order to be a member. I think this is similar to what you mean by "constricting specifics on these words". We explore together, but will most certainly arrive at different conclusions, based on the Spirit's guidance. For example, as you note that you are a fundamentalist with an inerrant view of Scripture, I'm guessing that we'd have different understandings of theology, of doctrine, and of the terms "Lord" and "Savior", but I can also take comfort in recognizing you as a fellow follower of Jesus that has been led to your understandings by the same Spirit that has led me to mine, and I know that we can be a part of this community together, regardless of our differences. Looking forward to joining you in conversation! Kind regards, Chuck

"We do not draw people to Christ by loudly discrediting what they believe, by telling them how wrong they are and how right we are, but by showing them a light that is so lovely that they want with all their hearts to know the source of it." --Madeleine L'Engle

Darron Steele
New User

Posts:6

10/18/2007 10:07 AM
Posted By keyless.chuck on 10/18/2007 9:48 AM Hi Darron, Welcome to the i.UCC boards! You have an intriguing story, and I'm glad you shared with us. Two points to answer your questions: 1) As a whole, the UCC does consider Jesus Christ to be Lord and Savior. Please see this link to the Preamble to the UCC Constitution to see that Jesus is recognized as such in the church's official documents. 2) For me personally and for my congregation, I answer that yes, I/we do recognize Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. ... I'm guessing that we'd have different understandings of theology, of doctrine, and of the terms "Lord" and "Savior", but I can also take comfort in recognizing you as a fellow follower of Jesus that has been led to your understandings by the same Spirit that has led me to mine, and I know that we can be a part of this community together, regardless of our differences. Looking forward to joining you in conversation! Kind regards, Chuck Hey, thanks for the reply and welcome. I really do not have a specific idea of what "Lord" means -- just `Who is Boss.' I think it is pretty much that simple. As far as Savior, I have heard that people have differing perceptions of that. I think my view is simple in that regard: by living sinless, dying for our sins and being Resurrected, Jesus Christ saved us from penalty of our sins. I recognize as fellow-Christian anyone who recognizes Jesus as Lord = `The Boss' and who recognizes that Jesus Christ is their Savior from their sins however they view that. As a biblical inerrantist, I believe Acts 2:47 when it says of the church "the Lord added to them day by day those \|who were being saved" (ASV\|NASB). Because all of Christ's followers are added to just one church , we are one community of faith. --Darron.

subear

Posts:732

10/18/2007 10:48 AM
Welcome, Darron, What I specifically like about your introduction and statement of faith/belief is "however they view that." As for the Bible as "inerrant;" I see the Bible as speaking truth, but I do recognize that it, also, is (was) filtered through the views of each (human) writer, each (human) translator, and each (human) reader. I see myself akin to all peoples of all faiths. Welcome, Susannah P.S. I read your treatise.

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

ProudDog

Posts:468

10/19/2007 9:40 AM
Welcome, Darron! I've heard on more than one occasion someone say something like, "It seems that you want to just throw out the part of the Bible you don't like." in relation to the UCC's mostly liberal interpretation of scripture (as a denomonation -- not necessarily individuals and congregations) I found some excellent Bible reflections about some of the commercials we had on TV a last year and the year before. I think they're excellent discussion and learning materials for anyone who seeks to grow closer to god.

-Kirk Moore

keyless.chuck
51-100 posts

Posts:58

10/19/2007 10:40 AM
Kirk, Darron hasn't said anything like "It seems that you want to just throw out the part of the Bible you don't like" -- in fact, he's gone out of his way to show that he's "NOT a typical fundamentalist" and that he's not here to attack us or our understandings of Scripture. He's here just to learn about how we UCCers understand Jesus -- a "learning excursion", as he put it. So, what are your thoughts on Jesus as Lord and Jesus as Savior? Darron, Perhaps you would find this book useful: Who Do You Say That I Am? : Christology and Identity in the United Church of Christ. As the description notes, the book does not try to instruct on a particular understanding of Jesus as THE way to understand Jesus, but its goal is more to show the variety of understandings of Jesus found within the UCC. Not all interpretations and understandings are represented, naturally, but to see the variety shown in this book is to also see a microcosm of the variety found within the church. Regards, Chuck

"We do not draw people to Christ by loudly discrediting what they believe, by telling them how wrong they are and how right we are, but by showing them a light that is so lovely that they want with all their hearts to know the source of it." --Madeleine L'Engle

baronsabato
51-100 posts

Posts:77

10/26/2007 6:13 AM
Hi Darron! I do indeed confess Jesus Christ as both my Lord and Savior, and I believe most people in my congregation would agree with the meaning behind the confession even if they don't always use the same language. The problem arises when we realize how our understanding of Jesus as Lord and Savior does not mean all the same things it meant for Christians in the 1st century. For me, Jesus as Lord and Savior means many things. By calling Jesus Lord, I mean that Jesus is the center of my life, the one who guides me along the journey. Jesus opens my heart when I want to keep it stubbornly closed, because Jesus is Lord of my heart and Lord of my life. And by calling Jesus my Savior, I mean that Jesus forgives me when I take the wrong path and teaches me to turn towards a different path. Jesus is the revelation of God's incredible grace toward all humanity, and that grace moves me to work for social justice and change so that all people can live in peace. But for the 1st century Christians, calling Jesus Lord and Savior was a highly subversive, treasonous act that meant that Caesar and the Roman Empire was NOT Lord- but rather, the God of Jesus and the God revealed by Jesus was. By saying that the power of the Roman Empire could be toppled by a Jewish peasant who spent his life serving others and teaching others to serve was something incredibly powerful that no longer rings true for American ears when we say, "Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior." Thus, many in my congregation do not affirm the phrase "Jesus is Lord and Savior" because, unfortunately, the phrase has become almost a kind of Christian cliche and has lost much of its original meaning. Even so, I believe if you dug into their beliefs, they will affirm much of the ultimate meaning behind the phrases, regardless of the words they use in their place. And really, isn't that the most important thing?

"the whole irreducible point of the faith, God thrown in human waste, submerged and shining. We have grown used to beauty without horror. We have grown used to useless beauty."

Darron Steele
New User

Posts:6

10/26/2007 5:27 PM
Posted By subear on 10/18/2007 10:48 AM Welcome, Darron, What I specifically like about your introduction and statement of faith/belief is "however they view that." As for the Bible as "inerrant;" I see the Bible as speaking truth, but I do recognize that it, also, is (was) filtered through the views of each (human) writer, each (human) translator, and each (human) reader. I see myself akin to all peoples of all faiths. Welcome, Susannah P.S. I read your treatise. Thanks for looking at it. Any comments? I doubt that you looked at all 146 pages, but my guess is that you probably did read the personal statement. I DEFINITELY have taken a very different route from most people of my religious persuasions.

Darron Steele
New User

Posts:6

10/26/2007 5:37 PM
Posted By ProudDog on 10/19/2007 9:40 AM Welcome, Darron! I've heard on more than one occasion someone say something like, "It seems that you want to just throw out the part of the Bible you don't like." in relation to the UCC's mostly liberal interpretation of scripture (as a denomonation .... Yeah; I never like to see that. It has been my experience that for the most part, if a person does not believe a portion of Scripture is fully accurate, it is because s/he actually believes that -- not because of some `dark motives.' Actually listening/reading for longer helps dispel such misunderstandings. My observations are that `liberal' Christians or Christians who do not shun them pay more heed to the hard stuff of Scripture than most `conservative' Christians and church people do. It is much easier to `rip' someone who disagrees with someone on some religious tenet irrelevant to Christian living than it is to deal with others according to Christ's values at all times.

goodstoryteller
51-100 posts

Posts:58

10/27/2007 3:02 AM
Darron Your question about Lord and Savior intrigued me--heard it all my life--yet I heard it differently tonight. In a sense I think more authentiaclly. What occurs to me is "Lord" is just a word totally out my my experience--like I have not grown up under the influence of Lords and Kings. I have no heart attached to that lanquage I do resonate with teacher, shepherd, even Rabbi. I don't see Jesus "Lording it over people" that is not the way I read the stories. He comes amoung us, he clebrates with us, he drinks the wine and breaks the bread, he meets us where we are. Suffering servant has stronger image appeal (belief) than does Lord. After many years of faith and teaching also the word "Savior" is not up on top in my imagery of my Jesus. My understanding of God is that he is love and loves us--from begining to end. He is not vengeful or needing appeasment or sacrifice--That is what makes our God unigue---He has made us his children. Nothing we can do could do that. It is not an act of man--not some but all people are children of God--I think Jesus parable reflects that--(badly misnamed Prodical Son) it is a story of a loving Father. So Jesus as teacher, father, tender shepherd are far more meaningful to me that Lord and Savior. Thank you for asking.

Theophilus
51-100 posts

Posts:82

10/28/2007 10:09 AM
what a great topic of discussion! these two ideas - Jesus as Lord and Savior - were ideas I used to really shy away from because of how they have been used in some hurtful ways. But spending two years in seminary has forced me to really articulate my Christology and I have found a new comfort in and appreciation for these concepts. First of all, I see these concepts as very tied together. I appreciate the 'aimlessness' that is mentioned in the UCC statement of faith as God seeking to save us from. For me, if I follow Jesus as foremost in my life (Lord), I can overcome this aimlessness, which I also see as my sin, as I feel aimless when I lose track of Jesus as my leader and focus. I also appreciate the comments made by baronsabato, but I disagree a little. My social justice pangs of my faith have led me to see that these ideas still maintain a type of subversion. When we recognize that we are so enveloped by a culture focused only on the bottom line, on getting to go to the mall to get some more stuff, on pimping out our rides so we have the sweetest wheels on the block, saying that all of this is not important, but living a life of spreading the good news of Jesus Christ (that the poor and oppressed will find freedom and peace), this is a subversive idea! When Jesus Christ is our lord, what involvement can we have in Corporations who are by law loyal only to their share holders and maximizing their bottom line? (sorry, just saw the documentary The Corporation and am pumped up.) What consequences does this have on our jobs?? On where/how/when/how much we shop? On what sort of lives we will live? On how we raise our children? I think these can still be very subversive ideas! And that helps me to appreciate them even more!

This is the day that the Lord has made, let us Rejoice and Be Glad in it

baronsabato
51-100 posts

Posts:77

11/25/2007 4:38 AM
Theophilus, I agree with you that the idea of Jesus as Lord is still incredibly subversive to the dominant culture. I think what I meant to say was that many members of my own particular congregation do not feel that using the actual title of "Lord" for Jesus retains or conveys that subversive meaning, and that other ways of understanding it bring this out much better for them.

"the whole irreducible point of the faith, God thrown in human waste, submerged and shining. We have grown used to beauty without horror. We have grown used to useless beauty."

Darron Steele
New User

Posts:6

12/21/2007 10:36 PM
Thank you, those of you who chimed in. I am happy to see that it seems likely that a sizeable portion of members of the UCC do recognize Jesus Christ as Savior and as Lord in some sense. Merry Christmas to all.

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