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Charlean
Posts:9
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| 10/05/2007 3:20 PM |
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| What can you do if your search committee has made a bad choice and the call is in place? Is there any protocol for this? I think our church is in trouble. |
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All you need is love... |
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Andy Lang
Posts:0
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| 10/05/2007 4:56 PM |
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Charlean, every congregation in the United Church of Christ is self-governing, and has the right to call and dismiss its own ministers. Associations do have procedures for helping congregations when there is a serious conflict or there are charges of misconduct directed against a minister who is already serving. But because there is no hierarchy in the UCC, there is no authority external to the local congregation that can interfere in its choice of a minister.
If you continue to have concerns, I would recommend that you talk personally to the chair and members of the search committee. |
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Charlean
Posts:9
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| 10/05/2007 6:01 PM |
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| Thanks Andy, I have discussed some of the issues with the council president and the pastor too, but I am not seeing any results. We are a small rural church. The pastor is recently employed; called but not installed. Our pastor is refusing to hold confirmation classes, doesn't care to work with the youth of the church (his time has passed for that); basically his job is consisting of Sunday's sermons and visits here and there. It is very disheartening for a church that waited so long for a pastor and had such high hopes. It is frustrating for those of us who wanted a motivated pastor and not just someone to sit and have coffee with. He does fine for the 70-plus generation because they don't expect much more than what he is giving, but the rest of us are left wanting, ...I guess, more. |
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All you need is love... |
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goodstoryteller
Posts:59
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| 10/06/2007 1:33 AM |
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What can you do if your search committee has made a bad choice and the call is in place? Is there any protocol for this? I think our church is in trouble.
That's a sad but I fear too frequent situation and certainly part of the cons of our call system.--but thats congregational autonomy.
I wonder if there are others that share your feelings, assessment. Can you get together and be redemptive community for each other and engage in ministry. I strongly believe our churches rely far to heavily on "Pastoral leadership" The healthiest churches I have been a part of don't miss a beat between pastorates and while they have strong pastorates the real work and ministry is done by the congregation.
It would be intersting to hear your assessment of how it was that the process went wrong.
Blessings and my prayers for you and the congreaton.
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Charlean
Posts:9
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| 10/06/2007 3:14 PM |
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While I can appreciate the congregation "pulling together and doing it themselves", I also have an issue with the pastor collecting a paycheck that he really isn't putting a lot of effort towards. As I said before, we are a very small congregation, and it is very important that the money we spend is well spent. I don't think that a pastor should do everything, but Sunday sermons should not be where their work stops. This particular pastor feels that with the exception of the sermon, everything else can be done by someone else within the church. While that may be true, a supply pastor could be filling that very same "Sunday sermon" purpose- for far less money, no parsonage, insurance, etc...
Our congregation is becoming divided on the issue. Some want to ride it out and see how he does, but there are others who are ready to terminate the call. We are beginning to have a drop in attendance and giving. I am afraid we will begin to lose members if this goes on too long.
I spoke to the council president about this; she feels as strongly as I do, but will not take the next step. I spoke to another pastor from a neighboring church to ask his opinion, as a friend and confidant. When I explained that to the council president, I was chastised and told we should keep our problems within our own church and not tell anyone we were having any! I don't feel that this is a very healthy way to handle the situation.
I have attended this church my entire life, but things are getting so bad that I am seriously considering changing churches. Luckily, I live in an area where there are several other UCC churches to choose from. While they may not be my home church, they are still UCC, and that is where my beliefs lie.
I apologize for writing so much, but at least here I can express myself without recrimination. Thanks for listening. |
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All you need is love... |
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Don NIederfrank
Posts:42
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| 10/21/2007 9:07 AM |
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| Charlean,
Here's my two-cents worth.
Stop the private, parking lot or whereever, conversations immediately. It leads to cliques and camps. Take the conversation public, work for transparency, insist the Council (I'm assuming there is no pastor-parish relations committee) develop an above-board way of dealing with this--"this" being the conflict.
The
Get your Association Minister on board immediately.
This is not a battle to be won but a situation of conflict which can an opportunity for honesty and growth or a church-destroying fight.
Be willing to recognize and confess your own sin in this dynamic.
Find those who love this church and Jesus enough to love enemies, compromise for the sake of the body, and will pray with fervency and humility. |
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Dios habla todavia |
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Charlean
Posts:9
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| 10/21/2007 1:58 PM |
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| I appreciate your comment,...however, I have consulted with several members of our Pastoral Relations Committee and so far nothing has been decided upon. They are taking a "wait and see" approach.
As far as I am aware, we are not having any parking lot conversations, but I could be wrong.
Our Conference Minister has been contacted also, but once again has decided to "wait and see", so we are basically in a holding pattern.
And as I am in a leadership role within the church, I feel it is vital for me to help protect ALL the members of our congregation, so I am not sure how asking for help leads me to sin.
All of the things you have suggested have been done, with the exception of self-blame. I do not feel that I or anyone else in the church should be or feel responsible for his shortcomings.
We will continue to pray and hope that we will be brought to some solution that will be peaceful for everyone involved.
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All you need is love... |
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goodstoryteller
Posts:59
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| 10/21/2007 11:45 PM |
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| Wait and see can be like watching someone light the fuse on a stick of dynamite and "wait and see" if it explodes or duds. Not exactly a healthy response to all situations and one that can be a very costly response.
So one option is to join those who have left and wait and see from a "safer" distance.
One perspective is there are other UCC churches around--that I gather are vital and healthy. Yours is struggling without vitality. It is living on past glories---I wouldn't dream of going anywhere else--this has always been my church. This view of the church is that it exists for the people in it--its members. I believe the New Testament church existed for mission and evangelism---for those not yet in the shurch.
You are very fortunate to have options. We here in somewhat similar situation had none--and now travel 60 miles each way to church--two to three times a month when we can.
I think the wait and see is a death watch position. Should one abondon a dying congregation?
I have asked that of myself---but after desperately trying for 18 months to be a part of that congregation we were clearly not welcome. And so joined the flight of others who said they were in for the long haul. That congregation by the way has lost 12 percent of its members in the first ten months of this year to death. That will continue and the same or steeper rate as those to old to leave and those in nursing homes are all thats left for the handfull of controllers to worry about.
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Charlean
Posts:9
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| 10/22/2007 10:58 AM |
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Thanks! I really appreciate your comments!
While this has always been my home church, I was raised here, confirmed here, my children were baptized here and now have begun being confirmed here... you can see the family history, but I am not so attached to a building that I will lose my sense of who I am as a person, religiously.
This particular pastor is not UCC, he is Presbyterian, and while that has worked out so many times before in other churches, in this instance it is not working out so well. He has made derogatory comments towards the UCC from the pulpit, and has made it clear that he does not agree with what the UCC stands for. I feel that the person leading the church should at least agree with what it stands for.
Our congregation is also an older one. The congregants have waited a long time for a pastor to come to the church, and they are anxious to have someone to follow. What happens when the person they feel they are to follow is giving them conflicting signals? They have belonged to this church all their lives, and now suddenly there is something wrong with their beliefs?
I CAN leave the church and go to more vital church. There are several nearby using the Congregational Vitality Program with fervancy to help their church grow and become more vital and vibrant. But what about the older congregants? What about the youth? Who will be left here to defend the church from the pastor?
I feel that the Search Committe has made a bad decision. He would probably be more successful in a Presbyterian church, but is unable to attain a job there. There are extenuating circumstances.
All in all it is a bad situation, which I hope does not destroy the church. I would like to say that my family will stay and "fight" it out, but fighting isn't a healthy way to resolve this.
If the pastor stays, my family will visit other, healthier churches. |
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All you need is love... |
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Don NIederfrank
Posts:42
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| 10/22/2007 6:14 PM |
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| deleted |
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Dios habla todavia |
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subear
Posts:745
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| 10/23/2007 2:19 PM |
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Dear Charlean:
A couple of years ago I was an active member of a church that "broke up" -- not UCC, but with a congregational (independent) organizational polity. I won't go into details, but a beloved minister retired, a new minister was hired (without an interim minister in between). Half the members went elsewhere (but conspired to "take back our church"), new members joined, good things happened. Finally, the "TBOC" group took over an annual meeting, voting in new board members. The new minister completed her three year Call (contract) and did not renew. The church now has a new minister who is well suited to the congregation, which is recovering.
My husband and I moved to another church, with "friendly" relations towards our old church and the minister they forced out. After the turmoil was over, I felt the emotional trauma and the feeling of loss, that we didn't have a church home. That we weren't part of the "leadership" in the church we had moved to. I realized this is kind of an ego identification thing. But it still felt like a "loss."
The church we moved to had also gone through a "break up" of its congregation. They had just hired a new minister. Someone who is a strong leader, who provided strong healing/teaching sermons for the first year. He is also someone who fosters others to take leadership roles. He wants to develop a strong, vital, community that isn't dependent upon his personality. So I am glad to have this new learning opportunity.
Whatever happens in your church, it's about Life. And Life goes on, through the creative intelligence of God/Spirit in action.
I am praying for the highest and the best, for you and your church.
Love and Blessings,
Susannah
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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Charlean
Posts:9
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| 10/23/2007 6:02 PM |
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This email was sent to my home as I requested via i.UCC.org:
Hello! A forum message has been posted to a thread you are tracking on i.UCC.org:
RE: Bad call... by Don NIederfrank posted on 10/22/2007 6:14 PM
Charlean, If this issue is dividing your congregation then some folks, and you sound like one of them since you are thinking about leaving, are not willing to take a "wait and see" approach but want the problem solved now. And I'm guessing that if this has motivated you to post the problem here, then it has motivated you to have private conversations about this which, guessing again, have not been especially positive or "edifying of the body" as Paul might say. From your perspective these conversations are a righteous cause; from mine, it's not following the counsel of those (the PPR and CM) whose position it is to deal with this. Posting the problem online and asking for other solutions isn't "wait and see." It sounds to me like the people responsible for dealing with the issue are dealing with the issue. You words about it be vital to help protect ALL the members of the congregation seem inappropriate. The congregation is made up of adults. Who or what do you think you are vital in protecting them from? Do they understand that that is your calling/position? Problems 'twixt pastor are congregation or the failure of the pastor to do his/her job or other issues are the reasons for a PPR committee. It's their baleywick, their responsibility, their calling, their elected position. If you don't think they are doing what they are elected/called to do, I guess you could talk to the Council. I doubt you will find a solution that will be peaceful to you other than getting rid of this pastor, especially since you seem fairly certain the search committee has made a "bad choice."
************
I apologize to anyone I may have offended... I came to this site as a way to get advice and unbiased opinions, but I have obviously struck a nerve. It has been suggested that I am having "secret" meetings and being inappropriate. All of this is untrue. I have spoken to the pastor himself, my church Council President, members of our search committe who are now the Pastoral Relations Committee and one local pastor for advice on this subject, absolutely no one else. All other information has been brought to my attention through the pastor's actions and comments.
I don't feel I should apologize for wanting to protect the members of my church, they are my extended family. Everyone should have a place where they feel that safe and secure. Shouldn't they?
I had hoped to get some much needed input on how someone else may have handle the situation, not to be told that I am probably to blame for it. This is not exactly the UCC I want to be a part of.
As for Mr. Niederfrank. The reason I brought your post here? It was deleted below, but I received it loud and clear at home. Please think before you hit submit. There is a real person on the other end. |
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All you need is love... |
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richrthr
Posts:102
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| 10/24/2007 5:59 AM |
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Much of the ministry you appear to expect from your pastor is reasonable and necessary. But if your pastor is not willing or is not able to perform these ministries personally, then perhaps the congregation can "pick up the slack?"
In our church, much of our ministry is performed by its congregation - not because the pastor won't do it, but because we are a caring, involved congreagtion willing to share the burden of ministry. We have Care Circle Leaders, Children's Church Leaders, a Drama Team, a Team of Ministries, a Multimedia Team, a community outreach team, a prayer team, etc.
Of course, I realize your question was procedural in nature - alas! I have no answers there except to check your bylaws. But how glorious for your congregation that they have a person (in you) who cares enough to speak up! |
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Richard Kiraly
Garden of Grace UCC
http://www.gogucc.com |
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Don NIederfrank
Posts:42
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| 10/24/2007 7:47 AM |
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| deleted because of that one giant paragraph thing |
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Dios habla todavia |
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Don NIederfrank
Posts:42
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| 10/24/2007 7:48 AM |
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Charlean, After 30 years of successful ministry and pastoring two churches through conflict, helping another recover from conflict as an interim, this is what I've observed and where I am coming from. 1) Churches rarely die b/c they have a bad pastor. Healthy congregations "pick up the slack," give the pastor a chance, vote him/her out at an annual meeting, form a new search committee and move on. 2) The most distructive dynamic in a congregation is conflict that is handled in private (not "secret") conversations, in which policies and procedures accepted by the congregation at large are ignored, in which "camps" of like-minded persons are formed. IOW, start a church fight and people will leave.
What I read in your letter and responses is 1)you've decided the problem is the wrong minister has been called. 2) Your use of phrases such as "stay and fight" and "protect" lead me to believe you've taken a combative, warrior like position. 3) You are certain that you are blameless in this. I deleted my note b/c after reading it I decided it wasn't what you wanted to hear and was going to be of little or no use.
I think you did get some much needed input and if you would like I'd be glad to tell you in detail how I've handled conflict. You were not told that you were "probably to blame" for the conflict. What I am saying and will say again is that the greatest danger to your congregation is not the pastor himself but the mismanagement of (perhaps unnecessary)conflict that is growing in response to the pastor. And to caution you that your emotional investment in this situation may lead you to contribute to this danger more than "protect" the congregation to which you are committed.
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Dios habla todavia |
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Charlean
Posts:9
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| 10/24/2007 10:55 AM |
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| I am hesitant to reveal too many details about our situation, because I would like to remain "anonymous", as it were. I do feel we may possibly have called the wrong minister.
Yes, I am emotionally invested in this situation, something I don't feel is a bad thing. Maybe if our pastor was a little more emotionally invested we wouldn't be where we are today.
You have not addressed any of the problems that the pastor is having within the church. Are those to be ignored? Are the members of the church just supposed to let the pastor do or not do as he pleases (and collect his pay), and not say a word? Our pastor is in the church office only 12 hours per week does the Sunday sermons and collects full pay plus all benefits. That is not what his contract outlines. He has been spoken to on several occasions. We have one person currently in the hospital to visit, so he is not spending his time with visitation, and he has not set up any home visits.
I have said before, our congregation is a small one, made up of mostly older people. It is very unfair to them to be taken advantage of in this way. I can go to a different church, but for most of the congregation, this is the only church they have ever known. They depend on the pastor to lead them. What do they do?
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All you need is love... |
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Charlean
Posts:9
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| 10/24/2007 10:55 AM |
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| I am hesitant to reveal too many details about our situation, because I would like to remain "anonymous", as it were. I do feel we may possibly have called the wrong minister.
Yes, I am emotionally invested in this situation, something I don't feel is a bad thing. Maybe if our pastor was a little more emotionally invested we wouldn't be where we are today.
You have not addressed any of the problems that the pastor is having within the church. Are those to be ignored? Are the members of the church just supposed to let the pastor do or not do as he pleases (and collect his pay), and not say a word? Our pastor is in the church office only 12 hours per week does the Sunday sermons and collects full pay plus all benefits. That is not what his contract outlines. He has been spoken to on several occasions. We have one person currently in the hospital to visit, so he is not spending his time with visitation, and he has not set up any home visits.
I have said before, our congregation is a small one, made up of mostly older people. It is very unfair to them to be taken advantage of in this way. I can go to a different church, but for most of the congregation, this is the only church they have ever known. They depend on the pastor to lead them. What do they do?
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All you need is love... |
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subear
Posts:745
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| 10/24/2007 2:03 PM |
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Charlean:
You feel like you are speaking to a wall here? Or maybe to the wrong folks? This is a relevant issue to be talked about here; and it sounds (reads) like Don has a lot of experience and wisdom about this sort of thing. But I don't think this forum can actually solve your problem. All we (most of us) can do is give you feedback on what we hear you saying is important to you, and the steps you might take. And, I'm reading that you have already taken those steps. You write that the pastor is not living up to his contract and has been spoken to about that. That is constructive action. And that you have been told to "wait and see."
But, I am also sensing that your are feeling some urgency that "wait and see" is not addressing. I think that "wait and see" is a good way to go, for a church (in general), but you have kids (going on 12 or 13?) who will be needing a Confirmation class (taught by a minister who is engaged and enthusiastic) about teaching teens. Is that correct? What many (older) people (like me) don't remember (or never knew) is how fast kids grow up and that parents of children don't have time for a church to get their youth program together, or to wait and see if the pastor (or some qualified adult) is going to teach the Confirmation class (when your kids are the right age to take it). Parents don't have time to "wait and see." Parents have only "NOW." After that their "window of opportunity" is past. That is why you may appear to be "impatient." That is why you may be feeling impatient. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Don advised you to get your message out in the open (without malice) so that your (and other's) issues may be heard and addressed. But, even that will take time and patience. It may be that the search committee was more fearful of having no pastor at all. I do know that "church" things take time.
If the general concentus is that the Confirmation class is not as important to the rest of the congregation as it is to you, you may need to take your kids to another church for their Confirmation class (if that is available). This may be possible without you changing your membership (I think my sister did that, back in the sixties). It may not fit your ideal but could be a solution. . . while you are waiting and seeing.
Love and Blessings,
Susannah
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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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Don NIederfrank
Posts:42
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| 10/24/2007 2:14 PM |
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Charlean,
I think there are two issues. First, the "wrong" pastor being called in the sense that it's a poor match between the abilities and willingness of the pastor and the needs and wants of the congregation. I sense this is what you are saying about his (dis)regard of the UCC and his unwillingness to teach confirmation or be involved in the youth. For this, I would counsel the "wait and see" attitude that you've heard from others. Especially if you and/or the PPR committee has talked to him about this. Though I've been well-liked, I've never been perfect and on a couple of occasions have benefited from voices from the congregation or leadership saying, "Don, we want you to..." Sometimes it has meant clarification and sometimes it has meant change.
The second issue is one of contractual responsibilities and simply doing one's job. An employment issue. It should never be overlooked or forgotten by a pastor that his/her salary is voluntarily provided by the congregation. It is the contractual part of my relationship with my congregation (the first part being more "covenental"); if I stop working they are going to stop paying me or if they would stop paying me, I would stop working. That's just a reality. For this someone needs to keep an account to hold the pastor accountable.
In a situation of trust that is simply a "pastor's report" that is given to the Council every month of how he/she has spent his/her time. In situations of high trust the leadership often just trusts that the pastor is doing his/her job. I'm not sure this accounting is due you directly. I think it is not. But as a member of the congregation you are certainly within your rights to meet with the Council and/or PPR committee and ask that they seek such an accounting. I think it's important when you raise this issue that you be as dispassionate and concrete as possible. It's not about how you are feeling; it's about whether the pastor is being fair to the congregation in providing the service for which he is paid. That sounds "cold" perhaps, but it's part of the relationship.
I would also advise that you do not present this by yourself, lest it become "Charlean's Issue," that the pastor and the church leadership be informed about the procedure before and after, that confidences be maintained (though my experience in small congregations is that this is difficult), and that some commitment to responding your concern be in place, even if it is only "We're not going to do anything for six months."
Asking a pastor to give an accounting of his/her time is not an unreasonable request. (And for pastors like me, such an accounting is helpful if only done for my benefit!)
And I would add one other thing. Good clergy want to be a benefit to their congregations. We don't mind correction, requests, even constructive criticism.
And last, though it's a drum I keep pounding on, the greatest threat to your congregation is not this pastor but a fracturing of the community as a result of poorly handled conflict. Conflict can be a fertile source of deep, honest community building. It's not worth anyone getting his/way if there is no church left after it is all over.
p.s. Keep you Association Minister as informed as possible. Many AM's have good knowledge and skills with regard to conflict transformation. |
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Dios habla todavia |
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Charlean
Posts:9
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| 11/06/2007 4:39 PM |
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| Is there anyplace I can speak privately to someone about this matter? There have been some disturbing updates... |
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All you need is love... |
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Don NIederfrank
Posts:42
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| 11/07/2007 10:32 AM |
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| Charlean,
If you want my private email is dniederfrank@gmail.com
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Dios habla todavia |
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| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
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