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Subject: What does the UCC Church teach kids about gays

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dct
New User
Posts:1

06/24/2007 3:57 AM  

Hello,

I was confirmed in the UCC church in 1984 at age 14 at Brooklyn Heights UCC here in Cleveland OH.   I haven't attended church as an adult, but now that I have two kids, I'm thinking about going again so they will have exposure to the church.  It seems like the church has changed a lot since I was a kid, and I'm particularly concerned with the UCC's open and affirming stance with regard to homosexual behavior.  

It is not my intent to get into a debate with you, but my understanding of this issue is that homosexual behavior is condemned in both the old and new testaments as a lustful abomination (sin).   As Christians I was taught we are to love the sinner and hate the sin.  

Questions:
How does the modern UCC church address the topic of sexual morality in general?  
What can I expect the church to teach young adults in this regard?
How does the UCC church address the denouncement of homosexuality in the Bible?

Thanks for your time and thought.

David

bmrathbun
51-100 posts

Posts:53

06/24/2007 8:51 AM
Good questions, David! The modern UCC church is working toward the message and model of Jesus Christ: all people are made in the image of God, therefore: all are welcome, all are worthy of respect, all have gifts to share; also, we all have some growing to do.

The understanding that homosexual behavior is sinful comes from several different eras in Biblical and modern history. There's not space here to deal with the 6 Bible verses (out of 66 books, remember!), but the main intent of the comments in each case, in both OT and NT, is that each person is to be seen as a valuable, important, worthy part of the community. Any action that uses another human being as an object, either sexually or otherwise, is sinful. (The meaning of the word "sin" is "to miss the mark" or "to fall short of a goal".)

We hope to teach our young people, and our old people, and our in-the-middle people, that the way to be members of a healthy community is to work together, finding and fulfilling our call to be stewards of the earth and all that is therein, to worship God with our whole hearts and minds and strength, and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. Who is our neighbor? Any other image of God we come across or hear about or think might be out there. We are to do justly, to love tenderly, and to walk humbly with our God. We are to teach, to heal, to love, to work, so that all people may live life abundantly.

All people deserve respect and care and love, deserve a good place to work according to their own gifts and graces, to be with others in community, to live an abundant and full life. All people, not just some. The assumption that any person is outside the fence is against everything that Jesus taught.

So what does the UCC do? I'm proud to say that this denomination, whatever its flaws and faults, makes a deliberate effort to notice when we're not living up to God's invitation. We fly to Hawaii to apologize for our missionaries' complicity in the arrogant 19th century assumption that native Hawaiians were not God's children until we got there and "civilized" them. We work to reconcile with Native Americans for the same kind of arrogant assumptions. We stood up for slaves imported from Africa in courts (ask about Amistad), we opened our homes for the underground railroad in the 19th century, we worked closely with people in the civil rights movement, advocating equal treatment, respect, and regard for people of color. We recognized that women have gifts as preachers and ordained our first woman in 1853. People who are gay, lesbian, transgender, and bisexual are simply the latest in a long line of people we were not noticing and caring about.

When people react negatively to people whose love-life relationships are not the same as "the rest of us", they're often responding to behavior, not orientation. There are some behaviors that are unhealthy and exploitative; these behaviors are not limited to same-gender relationships. If we're going to critique practices of intimacy, we cannot ethically limit ourselves to one group of people. That's exploitative and manipulative, and disrespectful of their status as images of God.

I'd like to see us work toward seeing each person as a child of God, an image of God, blessed with gifts and graces, invited by God and the faithful community to love others, encouraged by God and the faithful community to be the best image of God he or she can be. Jesus modeled a loving, fully human person, living in the light of God's grace, daring to be authentic, honest, and caring despite what the surrounding society was comfortable with. The more we learn from Jesus, the better world this will be.

Jesus never talked about homosexuality one way or another. Jesus talked about loving God, neighbor and self. That's a big enough job for now. Let's leave the judgments of our behavior to God.

You're doing good work with your questions, David. Keep asking, and keep searching. Together, we can grow our children and our church and our world toward the Light.

Rev. Barbara Rathbun, i guide, Opening The Bible
ProudDog
401-500 posts

Posts:468

06/26/2007 11:53 PM
Wow -- thanks, Barbara. That was a wonderful response! Welcome David!

-Kirk Moore
Karla MG
26-50 posts

Posts:46

06/27/2007 6:13 AM
I'll echo Kirk...AWESOME reply Barbara!!!  That'll preach.

David,  welcome to this space! How old are your kiddos? One of mine is 10.5 and my other two are 7.5 (yes, twins).  I look forward to "hearing" more from you!  --Karla

Karla
+++++
Faith is like a blanket, you can only stay warm when you're wrapped up in it!
+++++
Jeremiah 29:11
Pastorbogy
101-200 posts

Posts:121

06/30/2007 11:44 PM
Barbara, that was an awesome response. It expresses what I hope I communicate to confirmation classes. Including the young man in one class with two moms, and other students who themselves were gay or lesbian.
bmrathbun
51-100 posts

Posts:53

07/01/2007 8:13 AM
I'm glad the words I used were helpful. We can read both OT and NT stories as lessons in how God would like us to treat other people. Often in the OT, the question is strong : weak relationships. In the NT, it's still us v them; we are reminded by our UCC logo that we are working toward a day when we don't divide people into ingroups and outgroups, us v them, better : worse, etc. It's sometimes a struggle to think in other than dichotomous terms, but flowers come in all kinds of colors, so do birds and green leaves and fish. People come in all kinds of ideas and practices; if we are all to be one, perhaps our colors and shapes and practices are part of the beauty of the rainbow or the sunrise or the bouquet. My prayer is to encourage harmony with love and understanding (isn't that what hospitality is?). What's yours? Barbara Rathbun, iguide for Opening the Bible
richrthr
101-200 posts

Posts:102

07/10/2007 6:37 AM
well stated, bmrathbun!

I'm always reminded in discussions such as this of the hymn, "They Will Know We Are Christians By Our Love*" because I firmly believe it to be true.

One of my favorite posters I have seen put out by the UCC is the one that says: "If Jesus Embraced Lepers, Prostitutes and Convicts, Shouldn't We?"

If the UCC could be reduced to soundbites, I believe these two statements truly epitomize the UCC quite aptly.

Of course, I don't mean to imply that gays and lesbians are in any way criminal, but certainly they are outcasts in today's society: victims of social injustice. The fact that the UCC recognizes this and strives to overcome it is why the UCC is the right choice for me - and my kids, and my kids' kids. Because THAT is what Jesus would do.

(*hymn written by Peter Scholtes and sometimes aditional words and music by Carolyn Arends)


Richard Kiraly
Garden of Grace UCC
http://www.gogucc.com
JoeM
New User
Posts:2

04/21/2008 11:45 AM
Posted By richrthr on 07/10/2007 6:37 AM
[...]

One of my favorite posters I have seen put out by the UCC is the one that says: "If Jesus Embraced Lepers, Prostitutes and Convicts, Shouldn't We?"

[...]
Yes.  And then He said: "go, and sin no more"

cyn129
New User
Posts:2

05/24/2008 10:56 AM
David,
I can only speak for my own understanding of this issue, but I think that the issue of homosexuality and marriage is much more complex than a simple statement of the bible says it is a sin.

First, I do not think that it is a sin, but my post would be to long if I explained every reason why.   But I'll simply state that there are bible verses that support all of the following as sinful actions: masturbation, mixed race marriage, marrying outside your faith, marrying after divorce, eating pork, working on Sunday, being rich, etc...   And all of those "sinners" are able to marry.

Marriage is an instituition that is available to everyone except homosexuals.   This would include couples that have no intention of having children or are barren, couples that are not Christian, couples that engage in all forms of "deviant" sexual behavior, couples that are not faithful, couples engaging in pre-marital sex, couples that stand in front of a Justice of Peace and have no religious affliations, couples that are athiests, etc...  

In fact, I would argue that there has never been a wedding in the history of time that did not involve marrying one sinner to another.  We are all sinners.   We are all imperfect creatures, some striving to be better, some not.   There is no test for marriage that involves anything other than two people stating they wish to marry.  

So why does the fact that some Christians believe homosexuality to be a sin have anything to do with whether or not homosexuals should be allowed to be married?

Sexual morality for your children is something that you need to teach.  I would hope that it would focus on things such as only having sex with someone that you love.   Not having sex casually, no having sex too early, etc...   All of these are teachings that could be taught to a youth that is heterosexual or a youth that is homosexual.

The fact that couples who have had sex casually can get married in a church (UCC or otherwise) does not change that the church's position on sexual immorality is that you should not do this.   In the same way, allowing homosexuals to marry does not imply to the youth of the church that they should all be homosexuals.   It might imply to the youth that is already homosexual that they are welcome and that they should believe in monogamy and long time partnership.   I think that is a good thing.

Ask yourself how does the church address the denouncement of wealth in the Bible?  How does the church address the denouncement of women's rights in the Bible?   How does the church address the support of slavery in the Bible?   If you can understand those issues, and I think you can.  Then I think you can also understand how the church might address the denouncement of homosexuality in the Bible.

No one is asking you to give up 50% of what you own before you enter a church.   But that is a direct quote of Jesus when discussing salvation.  No is asking someone to be free of sin before they can enter church and no is asking someone to be free of sin before they can marry. 

Do not treat homosexuals with disrespect just because it is not an issue that directly affect you personally.   Consider how important it is to faith to understand God's love as unconditional.   How hard must it be for someone who is homosexual, who was baptisized in the church, who was told that they experienced God's grace, to be told when they are older that "God hates them".

I cannot imagine a greater obstacle to true Christian faith and belief.   God does not hate, God is love.   And we are a church who welcomes all, who encourages all.   The statement they will know we are Christians by our love is so true.  

I hope you can find some insight from my words,

Cindy
Matthew
New User
Posts:1

06/07/2008 11:10 AM
I have done the full circle " Search for my Church" and as of right now have no Church building I call mine. I do however have what I hope is an understanding of what God asks of me and what God needs from me and it involves raising my children in today’s world without being of the world.

I do however believe I need to make judgements to survive in the world and one of those is that we can all do what we want when we want as long as we are prepared to answer for it. Therefore if I believe (know) something is wrong I must not do it, weather it is harmful to me, others, and/or Gods image in me. It is not up to me to "decide" that being gay is a sin however I must make a decision to live my life and walk a path that is right for me and that path does not include being gay as a correct part of that path. Therefore my children will be taught that.

For a Church to stand up and choose sides and endorse a "lifestyle" that I believe to be incorrect means I can not belong to that Church. I have seen so many hypocritical people and policies in Church that I am now at a point where I feel Gods house would be cleaner without the people in it. And I am not saying I have not been part of the hypocrisy at all. I may be the worste?

There are passages in the bible that say "one man, one woman”,"go forth and multiply", and if I am remembering correctly one passage says " she was created for him......." and I am not saying these in and of themselves prove one thing to be right and another to be wrong, but I must make a choice and decide to believe something. We cannot just think we can do whatever we want and it will all be ok through the "Grace of God"! Wrong is wrong and right is right and the Church is there to teach us not walk beside us. The Church is to lead not follow. If the UCC has made the decision to embrace or promote homosexuality as being ok with God then that is where I step out. And the adds on TV I have seen, things I have read here and in other places make me feel the UCC embraces, and finds it to be 100% ok.

I grew up in a Lutheran Missouri Synod church. Then I walked away when I was 16, I then came back to an ELCA Lutheran Church when I was 30 which lead me to a lot of discovery and education in the Word of God. That led me to the beginning of Jesus and his Church, which left me no choice in my mind but to go back home. Which I believe still is the Catholic Church. Peter was given instruction to start a Church and that Church was Catholic. However I now see, and have witnessed, the hypocrisy and corruption "PEOPLE" brought to that Church. I have now stepped back and tried to concentrate on living right as best I can and getting the mess of my life corrected before I jump back in and try and find a Church to call home. I truly miss the "body and blood" and the cleansing of confession and the Eucharist. However as of right now I truly believe God has me where I am doing what I need to do and trying to get my family right without the confusion and outside influence of the "people" in Church who always seem to have agendas of there own.

So in all this babble I have just typed my one point to the original author would be this, teach your children what you believe to be true in your heart. Learn what you can from a Church but know that what truly matters is what is right and what is wrong according to God. And know that deep down any truly sane human Christian KNOWS what is right and what is wrong, but also knows you can, and will, learn things change and also know that new knowledge may someday bring a new definition to what you believe to be RIGHT! And may God help us all and help us make the right decisions.
cyn129
New User
Posts:2

06/09/2008 6:21 AM

I am saddened that you say you have no church to call your own.   Since this thread is about parenting, I can only say (and I mean this with love), that I hope you are raising your children in a church.    Worshipping in the body doesn't require that you agree with everything, but you should find a church that resonates with you and makes your spirit leap and makes you wake up on Sunday morning excited to go.  

While I completely disagree with your stance, I respect that if a particular church is not working for you, you should find another.

With that said, I cannot ignore your scripture references without comment.   I hope this can be a sacred conversation.   I respect, as you say, that each of us must draw their own conclusion and must live according to their own best understanding of truth.

I want to restate that the issue of respecting the right of homosexuals to marry is a Social issue, not a moral issue.   The church says that all are welcome wherever they are on their spiritual journey.   And welcome means share your life with us, including when you marry.   How unfair is it that heterosexual couples who might never attend church, who might not seek relationship with God at all, can come to  a Justice of the Peace and be married, while a homosexual couple who may have had great spiritual lives, have dedicated thousands of hours to a church, have truly sought God as best they can are not allowed to marry.

That the church supports equal rights for a minority should not be offensive, it should be celebrated.   And I'm sure there were people who left the church when women were given equal rights (against the recommendation of scripture), but when we read the overall message of scripture (not a small number of specific verses) this is reasonable and it matches our experience that there is no impact of gender on one's ability to have a spiritual life.

And when we accept the TRUTH that gender does not matter to spiritual TRUTH, then we must apply this to marriage as well as we have applied this to the rights of women.

"Go forth and multiply" -  The bible does say this.   But this does not prevent a young couple who has no intention of having children from getting married.   This does not prevent an older couple who have found love (long after their child bearing years) from getting married.    This does not prevent a woman (who is unable to conceive for medical reasons) from getting married.   And I would dare say that if you interrupted any of the above ceremonies saying that the marriage was not according to God's plan because of "Go forth and multiply", it would be very offensive.

"She was created for him" -  The actual passage is The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."   The argument that because Adam and Eve were man and woman, therefore all couples should be man and woman is not reasonable.    That would be the same as saying all children should be twins because Cain and Abel (first children) were twins.    I believe that love and the ability to love comes very specifically when the right person finds the right person.   The fact that Eve was right for Adam that doesn't mean that you know who God planned to be right for me.

At this point in history, there are very few churches that treat homosexuals with respect.   They have very few options of where to go to worship and raise their children (or themselves) in a way that resonates with their understanding of spiritual truth.   Be glad that the UCC is one of the churches and if you cannot bear it, then find another church because you have a thousand options.   And not one of them will ever tell your child that "God hates you".   But so many of them would tell my daughter that, so please respectfully understand that even though this issue makes you uncomfortable, it is so much more important to the people who live it.

LaurenZW
New User
Posts:5

06/09/2008 12:38 PM
We are all children of God and we are all sinners. I believe being Gay is a sin, but then I also think having sex outside of marriage is a sin too. (But I don't think we should exclude anyone from church. I wouldn't want to exclude an unmarried pregnant teen from church.)My point is God loves us even though we are sinners and we should also love each-other. We are all sinners even if the sins we each commit are all different from each-other. We should build each-other up. I was told that WE are the church not the building, so the idea of it being cleaner without the people doesn't make sense to me. Hope I did not offend
fleckers
New User
Posts:9

06/09/2008 8:44 PM
Reading this blog has given me much hope, by itself. Above are many and diverse views on the question of homosexuality, but I do pray, we all agree that God loves everyone, regardless of sexual orientation. Thanks to all of you for your replies to this question.

ginny
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